Atanu Dey On India's Development

Satya Sai Baba — Part 3

May 10, 2011 by Atanu Dey | 31 Comments

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority,” wrote Marcus Aurelius, “but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” And I would add that sometimes by standing aside from the ranks of the insane one runs the risk of being the object of unwelcome attention from the insane. But one does not have much of a choice in the matter: you are either sane or you are not. (Sanity, I should hasten to add, is a subjective matter and opinions would certainly differ on who is sane and who is not.) However, you can choose to keep your opinions to yourself instead of provoking people. I have to be vocal because how else can I oppose what I consider to be wrong. But this comes at a cost. Consider the fallout of my criticism of Satya Sai Baba’s conjuring tricks.

One kindly gentleman whom I know wrote asking me to take down my blog post (Satya Sai Baba and the Confederacy of Criminals, and the follow up.) saying that it will injure the Hindu cause. I was summarily dismissed from a Yahoogroup called “hinducivilization.” I used to basically lurk in the group and only very occasionally contribute an opinion or two from time to time. Not a great loss really but still it was a good way to feel the pulse of some very dedicated Hindu activists in India and abroad. I suspect that the only way the owners of that group could deal with dissent that they could not argue against was to shut it out. Good for them but bad for the cause.

It’s time to explain what my position is and why.

I am against anyone whose actions hurt the Hindu cause because I am a Hindu. Hinduism (to use the commonly used word for the Sanatan Dharm) and the other Indic religions are dear to me and I will fight anyone who gives them a bad name.

In this post I will explain why I oppose people like Satya Sai Baba and why on balance what he did was wrong and should be opposed by thinking Hindus. He has empowered the enemies of Hindus and endangered Hindu causes. He was either a charlatan or a severely deluded person, neither of which can be celebrated. On balance, he has done more to discredit Hinduism and Hindus than the good he is reputed to have done.

SSB, as any of his millions of followers will remind you, had a following in millions. He was — and is — regarded as a “Hindu leader” by many more millions who are not his followers. What the non-followers saw was a person who was plainly hoodwinking people. I am sure that aside from the really stupid cognitively handicapped, even his followers would agree that he was basically tricking people into believing that he could materialize ash (for the poor) and valuable small objects (for the rich.)

SSB used cheap tricks which any half-assed stage magician can do much better. Sophisticated trained magician he was not. You can see numerous videos on Youtube that clearly show that SSB was a really poor — not in terms of how much money he made but in the quality of the performance — trickster. But he had a huge following of people who call themselves Hindus. That is ammunition to people who would like to discredit Hindus and Hinduism.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

“Hindus are smart people did you say? Really? They are taken in by a guy who can’t even do simple stage magic without being detected, something that any two-bit magician can do for $50 for the entire evening’s entertainment at a child’s birthday party. Indians are not gullible, did you say? Really now. How on earth can you point fingers at our evangelizing preachers who fake-heal people at those rallies when one of your most famous ‘godman’ does lousy magic tricks and millions of Hindus hand over money to him?”

You reply, “But you are wrong. You are focusing on the magic tricks. Fact is that he built hospitals and delivered water to villages.”

“Are you claiming that he materialized those hospitals and the water for villages? And the money for the doctors and medicines — did he materialize that also?”

You reply, “No, don’t be silly. He told people that they should donate money for charity, and SSB used the money for getting all that done.”

“So you mean that he tricked people into giving him money. That shows that Indians have the resources to build hospitals and deliver water to villages but they don’t do it. The Indian government is incompetent and cannot get the resources from the people to do it. It also means that Indians have to be tricked into doing the right thing. They are gullible and mean. That’s what we have been saying — you Indians are ethically challenged. It is very sad.”

You reply, “You just don’t understand, do you. You don’t understand that our religion is really very good, and SSB used to give very deep lectures on how good it is. You just don’t know.”

“You are right that I don’t know about your religion. But from what I see from what SSB did, it cannot be very profound or deep. I am an outsider and I have to draw conclusions from what I see from the outside. If he has to use cheap tricks to get people to cough up, the underlying message must be shoddy. Think about it for a moment. Had the message been good, would it require conjuring tricks for convincing people that he was a man with a valuable message? So I have to conclude that the message of Hinduism must be quite worthless since it requires what amounts to putting lipstick on it.”

You reply, “I think you are being totally biased and unfair. SSB has very rich and powerful people as his followers. Very powerful politicians, even. One of the world’s most famous cricketers — Sachin Tendulkar — is a devotee.”

“Being rich and powerful does not mean that a person is wise, does it? Rich and powerful people often hang out and support each other in order to better fleece the powerless and the poor. In fact, it is a clever political ploy — to appear to be a great devotee of some powerful figure so that you gain the goodwill of followers and get political support. Can a politician really afford to alienate millions of potential voters by not appearing to be a follower also? My point is that SSB was a very smart man and must have known that using tricks was the only way to get his followers. I don’t believe that he had any real message because if a message is valuable, you don’t need tricks.”

You reply, “What’s wrong with you? Why are you fixated on tricks? All you have seen is a few minutes of YouTube videos. Do you know that videos can be doctored? Do you really believe all you see on videos? Have you seen any Star Trek movies? Do you think those aliens are real?”

“Forget those videos. Did SSB claim to have materialized stuff? If he did, then he has admitted that he was cheating because it goes against everything that is known about the universe we live in. If you believe that he could get stuff out of the air, you would have to believe that one can fly to the moon on a horse, that one can rise from the dead, and all the other “miracle” stuff. Then it is simply a matter of who claims to do more miracles. No wonder Christianity and Islam are getting converts — their stories have more miracles and the gullible Indians are converting. As I see it, SSB prepared the grounds for conversion by making the people believe the impossible, by not telling them to not be taken in by cheap tricks and inane fables.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

India is a large country and thousands of good people toil in total obscurity doing good work. They neither hobnob with powerful politicians, nor do they fool people into believing lies. Some of them educate people on the essentials of dharma, some work to undo the harm that the government does, some work to do the work that the government should have done but is too incompetent to do. Their work on the aggregate is much much bigger than what SSB ever did.

Agreed that SSB probably did not take all the money that he got from people and stash it away in foreign banks, unlike some of his politician followers. But you have to wonder — wouldn’t it have been better if he had not lied and cheated people? About his lying and cheating there can be no debate since materializing ash and small valuable objects is impossible.

If he really was able to materialize anything, to show his powers he could have materialized something that is not currently within the power of humans to manufacture. He is supposed to have turned a bucket of water to a bucket of petrol by sticking his finger into it. To show that it was no ordinary trick, he could have stuck his finger into a medium sized lake — at least it would have shown us a way out of our dependence on foreign oil.

I am being accused of helping out the enemy. That is truly unbelievable. Firstly, I don’t have followers — just a few people who read my blog. My message is that we need to clean up our act so that we are not ridiculed by others. Secondly, SSB has followers in the millions and therefore had the responsibility to behave ethically. What SSB did with those dirty tricks is provide our enemies with the ammunition they need to discredit Hindus, Hinduism and India.

  • larissa

    I think the popularity of Sai Baba has to do with the fact that current Hinduism is lacking in people who can relate religion to the masses, there is no real revival in the sense of religious leaders. Intelligent people readily understand the religion by reading scripture and by living out the principles embodied in the religion–but there has to be leaders to explain these ideals for the lay people in a simple manner that they can understand, I see such people lacking in terms of religious revival, so I suppose people like Sai Baba fill in the void. Now whether you like him or not and his methods– that is not in my sphere of interest –but he does fill in this void in the absence of a genuine religious revival. The more we understand this void, the easier to see why such types are popular and what function they are fulfilling, and until Hindus can come up with religious leaders that can relate the religion to the masses in a living way, such people will continue to fill in the void. Hinduism has always differentiated between understanding for the masses and abstract understanding which is not for everyone, this is why you have so many images in Hinduism, it is to aid the lay person to attain to abstract principles which otherwise would be difficult.

    We are in need of religious leaders who can make a strong impact on the masses in terms of our religious ideals, only this would constitute a genuine religious revival. At one point, we created mythology and images of gods and goddesses to help the lay people towards abstraction, now Hinduism is in need of reform again to revive its religious principles which in themselves are eternal in a way that can speak to and is relevant to our times, this needs methods which are relevant to modernity and which can withstand attack and criticism from enemies of Hinduism, but which in no way compromise the essential message of the religion. This is the real challenge for a religious leader.

  • Ramanathan

    Atanu,

    Shame on people who can’t take criticism on SSB. He was a man, a man who may probably have done more good than bad, but a man nonetheless. He can be rationally analyzed and criticized. Some people may have been drawn to him, purely for emotional comfort but that doesn’t make him God or does it give him the license to fool them.

    While I personally do not like Hinduism being twisted in the hands of people like SSB, I don’t have any complaints.The way I look at it is Hinduism is beyond all these charlatans. There have been many before him and will be many in the future. Despite all these, the religion will survive and flourish. People have swindled money in the name of Hinduism. This guy at least appears to have used it for the greater good.

  • TiredProf

    “It also means that Indians have to be tricked into doing the right thing. They are gullible and mean. That’s what we have been saying — you Indians are ethically challenged.”

    SSB or no SSB, at this point we (and perceptive outsiders, if you care) can confidently conclude that the above are valid observations. And this state of affairs is a far bigger problem than SSB.

    PS: That being said, it may be pointless to hold India’s societies and governments to the same ethical standards as their Western counterparts. The histories of these regions have evolved apart so far that they will certainly never meet in the future of this planet. China is a different story. Their administration does not “trick” their people into doing the right thing, but “beat” them into submission. Some day in the future people may agree that this was better in aggregate than democrazy Indian style. But if end justifies the means, why not the SSB strategy? More palatable for everyone. Literally; I hear the food at SSB joints is amazing.

  • Madhusudan

    For those who have been doing tricks and claiming themselves to be Godmen, there are several yogis in himalayas who have certain siddhis by which they can materialize things from air. many must have heard about levitation & all.
    There are 8 siddhis that can be obtained by those on the path of Yoga.

    But these yogis are vehemently against their being labelled as God. On the other hand SSb used to declare himself as God which is egregious fraud.

    I completely agree with Atanu. I support him.
    No wonder that Sonia Gandhi paid homage to him on his way to hell.

  • http://www.mobilepundit.com/ Veerchand Bothra

    Why did Sathya Sai Baba have to collect donations for his projects?

    If he really had the touted miraculous powers of materialising valuable objects out of thin air, then all his projects could have been self-financed.

  • Oldtimer

    Well said. You speak for me. One of the issues with the so-called Hindu right is that it is too stupid to tell between friend and adversary. You need well-wishers who tell you like it is.

  • pointblank2108

    I Agree.Period.

  • shyam

    “It also means that Indians have to be tricked into doing the right thing. They are gullible and mean. That’s what we have been saying — you Indians are ethically challenged.”

    If not why would we see so many churches and mosques built everyday,why do we see so many conversions everyday. You are right, Hindus can be easily tricked because we don’t have a mulla who can issue fatwa or a pope who is in Vatican running the churches across the globe. No wonder these SSB’s and Nityananda swamy’s screw up life’s in the name of Hinduism..mera bharat mahan

  • http://akshar100.wordpress.com Akshar

    Atanu,

    Become a baba, I will follow you.

  • x

    >>> “Hindus are smart people did you say? Really? They are taken in by a guy who can’t even do simple stage magic…….and millions of Hindus hand over money to him?”

    Do yindoos hand over money to stage magicians ?

    Only a self-opiniated person will fail to see logic, instead ascribe wrong reasons.

    It is not for magic tricks that people hand over money. People of Yindia are not so gullible as some self-opiniated westerner may imagine, or pretend.

    And it is not for hospitals or water to villages either, those were built later.
    People gave money and, more importantly, attention and time, because they benefitted from him, in different ways- some spiritually, some healthwise, some financially, some through job opportunity, that they ascribe to his blessing.

    The difference with a charlatan is in the message, which was altruistic.

    >>> “That shows that Indians have the resources to build hospitals and deliver water to villages but they don’t do it. ”

    SSB was not indian ?

    >>> “The Indian government is incompetent and cannot get the resources from the people to do it.”

    First these western greedies loot this country for centuries, establish an admin system for efficient loot, install their trained sepoys and withdraw. Those sepoys continue with the loot. Then these westerners stand back and say- “The Indian government is incompetent” !

    Indian governmental system is very competent, in continuing the legacy they inherited from the colonizers.
    Have enough resources to do the needful too. But their western values prevent good from happening, most of the time.

    >>> ” It also means that Indians have to be tricked into doing the right thing.”

    What self-opinion, considers himself qualified to pass judgement on Indians. And that ‘tricking the indian to do the right thing’, naturally, is white man’s burden, na?

    >>> “They are gullible and mean. ”

    really ?

    anything else too ?
    perhaps you forgot to add cruel, miserly etc…?

    >>> “That’s what we have been saying — you Indians are ethically challenged. It is very sad.”

    Yeah, you do have a heavy burden to uplift us heathens.

    I’m surprised that an intelligent fellow like Atanu allowed this kind of drivel go unanswered, apparently.

    >>> “You don’t understand that our religion is really very good..”

    Which religion ?
    Purana, Itihasa, shastras and sruti do not mention any religion.

    Atanu, you are setting this ‘Indian’ up to be bashed by that westerner, are you ?
    Like in ‘Hind Swaraj’ MK Gandi set up a nationalist character to get beaten by Gandi’s dialogues.

    >>> “I am an outsider and I have to draw conclusions from what I see from the outside.”

    This western eminence is able to draw conclusions from the outside of a room. must have x-ray vision. probably also considers himself ‘superman’.

    >>> “I don’t believe that he had any real message because if a message is valuable, you don’t need tricks.”

    True, in indian context, nobody carries messages. Because the messages are within each person. He/she only has to realize the message within them. That is what bharatiya samskriti inspires.

    >>> “Did SSB claim to have materialized stuff?…. it goes against everything that is known about the universe we live in.”

    known by whom ? This westerner ?
    Does the fellow conclude that he knows all about the universe that is to be known, or that his western system knows all that is known ?
    that other people don’t have any knowledge that he/his system is not privy to ?

    just asking.

    >>> “…you would have to believe that one can fly to the moon on a horse, that one can rise from the dead, and all the other “miracle” stuff.”

    Difference being that the exhortion to convert or kill is absent here unlike in the case of other ‘miracle’ stuff (that ancestors of this same westerner peddled and still continues to be peddled by this fellow compatriots), which makes a lot of difference, a hell of a lot of differnce actually, considering that non-believers in the other cases had to live through hell on earth, even now have to live through hell on earth, in places like Bengal, J&K, Nagaland and other Northeastern states within india and in many other places throughout the world.

    >>> “Then it is simply a matter of who claims to do more miracles.”

    No. It is a matter of allowing others to live with dignity, that every western system- be it communism, islam ,xianity, capitalism, nazism, fascism; denies, which bharatiya samskriti allows, and SSB also fosters.

    >>> “No wonder Christianity and Islam are getting converts — their stories have more miracles and the gullible Indians are converting.”

    Megalomania and pretentiousness makes this person view indians as gullible.
    The few indians that convert do so due to greed. The same reason that made sepoys take up arms against their own countrymen and serve the looting plundering westerners. greed for more- in this life and the promised afterlife.

    >>> “As I see it, SSB prepared the grounds for conversion by making the people believe the impossible, by not telling them to not be taken in by cheap tricks and inane fables”

    as if people are waiting to be ‘made to believe the impossible’, them being without any intellect, which apparently is the sole property of this western ‘gem’.

    >>> “But you have to wonder — wouldn’t it have been better if he had not lied and cheated people?”

    Wouldn’t it have been better if you had confirmed from people who went close to him, whether he cheated them or lied to them ?

    Oh, forgot, they are supposed to be ‘gullible indians’, so no use asking them, right ?

    >>> “About his lying and cheating there can be no debate since materializing ash and small valuable objects is impossible. ”

    What has materializing ash and small valuable objects got to do with lying and cheating ?

    point being that you are assuming a connection here.
    Do you have sufficient grounds for such conclusion ? Have you, for e.g., ascertained from any body whether they got cheated ? anybody who is really trustworthy and not on payroll of another party. There are millions of his ‘followers’. Surely it must be easy to find out a few who would substantiate what you are assuming.

    >>> “If he really was able to materialize anything, to show his powers he could have materialized something that is not currently within the power of humans to manufacture.”

    Perhaps this idea could have been given when he was alive ?

    >>> “He is supposed to have turned a bucket of water to a bucket of petrol by sticking his finger into it. …it would have shown us a way out of our dependence on foreign oil.”

    Only to later get blamed for causing massive pollution/water body contamination..et al

    >>> “My message is that we need to clean up our act so that we are not ridiculed by others.”

    We may clean up our act for our own reason, no need to fear ridicule of self-opinionated idiots of western world.

    >>> “What SSB did with those dirty tricks is provide our enemies with the ammunition they need to discredit Hindus, Hinduism and India.”

    Hindus – a term coined by westerners. not us.
    Hinduism – likewise.
    India – likewise.

    Why the heck do we have to accept westerner’s constructs and try to get their approval, which anyway they are not going to give, opinionated as they are that we are- “gullible”, mean, incompetent, “ethically challenged”, “who have to be tricked into doing the right thing”, and so on.

    Let indians give respect to whom they are convinced deserves respect.

    Let there not be efforts to bring everybody’s thinking to one way of thinking, which is what monotheism is actually all about.

    Lets stop seeking approval of megalomaniacal self-opinionated duplicitous gasbags.

  • Amit S

    @x

    > What has materializing ash and small valuable objects got to do with lying and cheating ?

    Really?

    > The few indians that convert do so due to greed.

    By your reasoning an average Indian Christian should be greedier than an average Indian Hindu. Somehow I don’t buy that.

    > No. It is a matter of allowing others to live with dignity, that every western system- be it communism, islam ,xianity, capitalism, nazism, fascism; denies, which bharatiya samskriti allows, and SSB also fosters.

    Wasn’t communism supposed to restore dignity of the working class? Is believing in miracles anywhere close to living with “dignity”? Perhaps the Indian converts wanted dignity that being untouchable could not get them. Not saying that every Indian learned to practice untouchability based on some “Hinduism”, but even Ramayana mentions that Rama had fruits previously tasted by someone of a lower caste, substantiating that at least the concept of a prohibited caste existed, even though Rama disregarded it in all his supposed greatness. If the story is true or based on the contemporary reality of the time, then untouchability existed. If it isn’t then the author was trying to set the stage for it by subliminally telling some people that they are of lower status and must wait for someone of higher status to give then approval. Ditto for Karna being sutta-putra but being accepted by Duryodhana in Mahabharata. For better or worse, most Indians are familiar with these two epic that are full of miracles and people with supernatural powers than with other readings.

    Not saying that Abrahmic religions are devoid of falsehood and miracles. Indeed, Christian some missionaries tried to make me see Christ in a seemingly random image by playing some image processing trick that I was too familiar with for their comfort. But how is that different from pulling ash out of someone’s a$$?

    > Let there not be efforts to bring everybody’s thinking to one way of thinking, which is what monotheism is actually all about.

    Amen. But, let us not promote falsehood either that an pull-ash-out-of-a$$ baba has divine powers so let us give him money to build his own personal wealth and powers, and by the way also hospitals. There is so much good and diverse to choose from in Bhartiya heritage, that we don’t need such babas just for the sake of diversity of thought. Some strains of thoughts are stupid, some are adharmic, like willingly being cheated and cheating. Diversity in neutral and dharmic thoughts is fine.

    Man, you were doing so good until you started talking about believing in SSB and miracles. We have so much to give to the world without this falsehood. Don’t disappoint me man.

  • y

    x, I won’t repeat my earlier replies to you. In any case, you seem impervious to them.

    Let there not be efforts to bring everybody’s thinking to one way of thinking

    Indeed, so why are you trying to force everyone to accept SSB and not only that, consider him to be inseparable with the underlying philosophy?

    And, you keep arguing about self-opinionated and aggrandizement. Wasn’t SSB highly self-opinionated and guilty of self-aggrandizement?

  • Aaren

    SSB may have tricked people, but no more or no less than any used-car salesman. That he had millions of followers only makes him a better peddler of snake oil than most others.

    And arguments regarding information asymetry due to his lying are nonsense, unless you are saying that ‘caveat emptor’ should not be available as a defense for sellers. SSB did not indulge in coercion when it came to the money he collected from unwitting idiots.

    And, can you please be more explicit? “On balance, he has done more to discredit Hinduism and Hindus than the good he is reputed to have done.” On balance, what discredit are you referring to? Unless your argument is that the small %age of “Hindu’s” who claimed to be his followers spoke on behalf of all or even the majority of people who think of themselves as Hindus, how exactly did SSB discredit the religion itself? Hinduism – the religion – is doing just fine. Takes far more than even a dozen SSBs to actively cause damage to the religion or perceptions of it among non-Hindus.

    I’m all for the argument that the man was a lying cheating thief, but he did much better than any government which taxes people against their will or the robber who loots your home. It doesn’t make him a good man, but it doesn’t enable the argument that he has dis-credited Hinduism either.

  • Aaren

    Sorry, one last thing ‘SSB has followers in the millions and therefore had the responsibility to behave ethically’. Really? Why?

  • x

    @ Amit S

    It is a matter of allowing others to live with dignity, that every western system- be it communism, islam ,xianity, capitalism, nazism, fascism, denies, which bharatiya samskriti allows, and SSB also fosters.

    >> “even Ramayana mentions that Rama had fruits previously tasted by someone of a lower caste…. If it isn’t then the author was trying to set the stage for it by subliminally telling some people that…’

    subliminally telling,…

    Valmiki could have done more. Jungle robber(undoubtedly low caste) turned writer that he was. Have you observed any more subliminal messages sir ?

    For e.g., Killing that poor Bali in very cowardly manner, the typical act of a upper caste person. Bali being a vanara, that must be below even untouchables, no ?
    Tremendous subliminal message Valmiki must have wanted to convey when he wrote that.
    Friendship with Hanuman, sugriva, both vanaras, untouchables. subliminal.

    Cutting off nose of Surpanakha, typical behaviour of upper caste men towards poor women of jungle. subliminal.

    >> “Ditto for Karna being sutta-putra …”

    Vyasa being son of fisherwoman, subliminally untouchable…. that fisherwoman becoming queen subliminally. There is some message in there that Vyasa the author of MB was trying to convey. Vyasa’s grandmother on paternal side was also a low class woman. And then Vyasa went and procreated Dritharashtra, Pandu with what should be his co-brother’s widows. Some more subliminal message there.

    Did you know, Sri Krishna went and married Jambavati, daughter of Jambavan, the vanara worse than untouchable. What do you make of it? All subliminal. Bhima with Hidimbi, who must have been an untouchable at least. Arjuna with Uloopi. All subliminal.

    You are very knowledgeable sir.

    >>> “let us not promote falsehood either that an pull-ash-out-of-a$$ baba has divine powers so let us give him money to build his own personal wealth and powers, and by the way also hospitals”

    Did you find any advts on those lines, asking money to be given to SSB ?

    >>> “Man, you were doing so good until you started talking about believing in SSB and miracles.”

    Not about believing or disbelieving.
    Just that in the overall scheme of things, SSB may have done more good than otherwise, and the criticism that he is getting may not be justified, considering the state of things currently in society.

    @ y

    >> “Indeed, so why are you trying to force everyone to accept SSB and not only that, consider him to be inseparable with the underlying philosophy?

    Don’t accept SSB, don’t crucify him too.

    Not inseparable. Just that his advice was for peaceful relations in society, which is in congruence with our samskriti.

  • y

    @x, sorry, I can’t let you off the hook.

    Not inseparable. Just that his advice was for peaceful relations in society, which is in congruence with our samskriti.

    You did not answer my allegation of SSB being self-opinionated and guilty of self-aggrandizement. Don’t atleast some of his actions: cheap “miracles”, lavish birthday celebrations, wasting funds on an aerodrome, cricket stadium, dubious cricket matches with gold/silver trophies (hopefully those were fake but what’s the point?), luxury apartment complexes for himself and VIPs, silver chariots, statues of Buddha, Hanuman, Moses, Christ, raise red flags to you? And, how are those actions congruent with SSB’s own preachings or with our samskriti?

    His supporters do not raise any questions, nor do they have a convincing answer to any questions. I cannot imagine that that would be congruent with our samskriti? Is it? And, if so how?

    Your argument so far is that people have experienced good outcomes personally and hence their faith in SSB. Blind, unquestioned faith and cults have always been shown to be powerful for the follower. It removes doubt, builds enormous self-confidence and people go on to do great deeds. It does not justify other actions of SSB and he cannot be given a pass on this basis. There are alternatives you know – good education is a far more powerful confidence enabler.

    And, then, it is somewhat vain to pray to God/Baba for material favors, anyway. It reminds me of a passport baba in Jharkhand where people stick their passport copies to a tree so that they can get a job outside India. I’m pretty sure they will be ardent followers once they get a job and perhaps he will go on to build an ashram too. Passport baba’s business would suffer if those people had more confidence from better quality education and economic opportunities.

    The other argument is that since nothing is conclusively proved (in the follower’s eyes), why attribute it to malice or delusion. That is disingenuous since there is more than enough to be doubtful and more than enough that “feels” (yes, it is subjective, and a personal view) incongruent with our samskriti.

  • Jagadish

    @Aaren: “And, can you please be more explicit? “On balance, he has done more to discredit Hinduism and Hindus than the good he is reputed to have done.” On balance, what discredit are you referring to?”

    This should be blindingly obvious to anyone, but let me spell it out s-l-o-w-l-y for you.
    People start equating Hinduism with crooks like SSB, Nithyananda and other fake swamis and self-proclaimed “leaders of Hinduism”, reducing the vastness of our philosophy and teachings to idiotic parlour tricks by smooth talking snake-oil salesmen. It’s like saying Islam = Mullah Omar or Christianity = Westboro Baptist Church or Jerry Falwell.

  • Oldtimer

    Are Jagadish and Aaren the same person by any chance, piggybacking on SSB to insert the claim that there’s nothing whatsoever wrong with the intolerance and exclusivism of monotheistic faiths?

    You should make that claim directly, comrades. Then we can debate it in its own right.

  • x

    >> “You did not answer my allegation of SSB being self-opinionated and guilty of self-aggrandizement”

    Haven’t studied him sufficiently to answer that.

    >> “Don’t atleast some of his actions: cheap “miracles”, lavish birthday celebrations, ….silver chariots, statues of Buddha, Hanuman, Moses, Christ, raise red flags to you?”

    They do (if they are indeed his ideas and not of his followers’).

    Yet, the context of charlatanism, duplicity and deviousness that he is being accused of, his actions(assuming these are his own and not of overenthusiastic followers) pale before the more prominent ones that are there in society, that do not get such exposure or scrutiny, that manage to remain in background and causes much more serious damage- the institutionalization of deviousness and duplicity such as through sold out media, the sold out politicians, the exploitative web of governmental administration, the far reaching claws of church and ummah, the exploitation by greedy capitalists, selfish violence by communists and the subversive education system.
    SSB is no more. But these other exploitative structures continues to thrive. and creates a future that is infinitely more damaging than anything SSB had done in his life.

    Though Atanu has blogged against all of the above correctly, barring capitalists, they require much more sustained focus to make any difference.

    It is like, when you are being attacked by a lion, you would not worry about a mosquito flying nearby (assuming that it is indeed a mosquito and not a harmless fly).

    >>> “And, how are those actions congruent with SSB’s own preachings or with our samskriti?

    If SSB preached simple living, those actions are not very congruent.

    It was his advices for peaceful coexistence that was said to be in congruence with our samskriti, in prev comment.

    >>> “His supporters do not raise any questions, nor do they have a convincing answer to any questions. I cannot imagine that that would be congruent with our samskriti? Is it? And, if so how?”

    An enquiring mind is a good thing.
    Perhaps those people found answers to their questions.(?)
    Perhaps they may not be too keen to spend time convincing you..

    >>> “Your argument so far is that people have experienced good outcomes personally and hence their faith in SSB. Blind, unquestioned faith and cults have always been shown to be powerful for the follower. ”

    Because blood is red in color, every liquid of red color must be blood ?

    This is a fallacy of ‘rational westerners’, they see christian religion as bogus BS and assume that every religion is similar and launch attack.

    A person wearing striped T shirt snatches a bag and every person wearing similar T shirt is suspected as a robber.

    Cults have been shown to be bad. They often leave the follower an emotional intellectual wreck, dependent on the cult leader for directions to do even simple things, lose their self-control.
    Have SSB followers shown to be such ?

    >>> “good education is a far more powerful confidence enabler.”

    good education maybe.

    But what goes on in the name of education in today’s schools actually disables a person’s self knowledge, makes him a puppet that acts out its script according to cues given through media and societal institutions.

    >>> “And, then, it is somewhat vain to pray to God/Baba for material favors, …… …if those people had more confidence from better quality education and economic opportunities.

    Between a false Baba and today’s education/economic opportunity, there is only one difference- the former fools fewer people.
    The latter has intitutionalized the fooling of people and turns them into useful tools, for self-aggrandizement, serving the purpose of the system, tools that do not stop to think of any different purpose than to feed their physical body’s needs and other activities that are suggested to them/ideas planted in their minds.

    It is the difference between an individual and an institution. The damage possible by an individual is limited, that by subverted institutions, systems, accepted unquestioned, are unfathomable.

  • Amit S

    @x

    I think we need to call a spade a spade and critically analyse the good and bad in every philosophy or samskriti instead of making blanket generalizations. Do you agree?

    You seem to be making blanket generalizations. Not everything Western denies others of their dignity, nor everything Bhartiya allows others to live with dignity.

    Let us take the example of Capitalism, which according to you is an evil Western construct designed to rob people of their dignity. How does capitalism deny others to live with dignity? Perhaps you may want to first explain your definition of capitalism, otherwise we may be talking about two different things.

    Now about Bhartiya samskriti. First of all, thanks for the numerous examples of caste mobility. These just substantiate the point that birth-based-caste-associated immobility existed, so examples had to be set by great men to cross these barriers. Such barriers exist in different forms in the West also, such as race-based barriers. I don’t find either one of these barriers as promoting dignity. Would you say that those who believe in birth-based-caste-associated immobility were not practising some aspect of Bhartiya samskriti? Isn’t it the same as “No true Scotsman fallacy”? (http://www.deeshaa.org/2011/05/02/the-no-true-scotsman-fallacy/)

  • y

    x,

    Haven’t studied him sufficiently to answer that… They do (if they are indeed his ideas and not of his followers’).

    So, you are keen to defend him, take long detours, etc. Yet, on this, you do not want to take a position. You are also willing to delude yourself that it may not have been his own idea, or, that the video might be fiction. Please be honest to yourself and give up the duplicity and delusion. If you are willing to ignore these aspects, then you should also stop defending him (especially since these aspects are what the criticism relies upon).

    As if he had no choice in the matter even if the ideas were suggested by his followers. Wasn’t he their spiritual leader who should have been correcting them on the nonsense?

    And, yes, I know his preachings are good, but that’s not what we are arguing about. His preachings were not unique to him and have existed prior to him. And, he didn’t even follow some of it himself.

    SSB’s scale and following do not qualify him as a mere mosquito in the grand scheme of things. You try to argue both sides – on one hand, look he has millions of followers you say, on the other hand – oh, he is only one individual. But, he is institutionalized as well, huge organization and business around him. His following will continue after his death. So, he was certainly no mosquito. I don’t disagree that there are other, larger problems, but this one’s not insignificantly small either. And, it is of the systemic variety that should not be ignored.

    Anyway, I have my answers. Thank you for responding.

  • Aaren

    @Jagadish – my apologies, I should have been more clear. You’re right in saying that he has discredited Hindus and Hinduism. I’m just not sure whether its reasonable to say that ‘ON BALANCE’, the discredit outweighs the good work he’s done – and that view has nothing to do with him, its to do with the relative strength and vast scope of the Hindu faith. But that’s my opinion, and it needn’t be yours.

    @Oldtimer – I have no idea who Jagadish is. And to be completely frank, I have no idea what you mean or are referring to regarding monotheistic faiths? I’m here to learn some and discuss some; and have no need to use multiple pseudonyms to express my views in the commentspace of any blogpost.

  • Oldtimer

    Hello Aaren,

    Thanks for clarifying. The eagerness with which Comrade Jagadish latched on to your argument to slip in a false equivalence between SSB and Mullah Omar seemed like a well known pattern, so I was misled. SSB is a cheat, but Mullah Omar is a murderer. A more appropriate equivalence is between Noam Chomsky and Mullah Omar, because Chomsky, though not exactly an orchestrator of murder, is a justifier of it. He is also a guru like SSB. Just as people looking for “spiritual” succour flocked to SSB as a living god, commies needing ideological assurance look up to Chmosky as their modern-day prophet, the guy who gives them the line they must in turn peddle. For example, Bin Laden is not responsible for 9/11 on the planet that Chomsky and his disciples inhabit. Jagadish seemed to miss this point, so it surprised me.

    Anyways, while on the subject, you might enjoy Hitchens’ fisking of Comrade Chomsky:

    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/05/11/christopher-hitchens-chomskys-follies/

  • Kaffir

    Atanu, if you’re wondering why religion makes people “gullible,” here’s a new study shedding some light on it:

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/12/religious-belief-is-human-nature-huge-new-study-claims/?hpt=C1

  • x

    >>> “You seem to be making blanket generalizations. Not everything Western denies others of their dignity, nor everything Bhartiya allows others to live with dignity”

    Thats a nice a blanket, covers all sides. Lets go sleep underneath, the stupor induced ‘subliminal’ dreams that follow are very soothing.

    >>> “Let us take the example of Capitalism,…How does capitalism deny others to live with dignity? ”

    How did East India Co deny indians life with dignity.

    oh, of course, East India Co was not CAPITALIST, eh?
    That would be the “No true Scotsman fallacy” you mentioned.

    You would also find justification to how christianity helps people live with dignity, or islam, specially those burkha clad women. See, they are not ogled at. see, how much dignity they get ?

    >>> “Perhaps you may want to first explain your definition of capitalism, otherwise we may be talking about two different things.”

    Yeah, don’t tell me Catholic priests play with altar boys or did inquisition and burning of women, Protestant christianity that I follow is totally different. two different things altogether. You may want to brush up your subliminal powers to understand that.

    >>> “Now about Bhartiya samskriti…..These just substantiate the point that birth-based-caste-associated immobility existed, so examples had to be set by great men to cross these barriers.”

    Yes. Parashara sitting in that boat thought- let me first cross this “birth-based-caste-associated immobility barrier”. King Shantanu had the same idea when he approached Satyavati.

    Satyavati somehow seems to trigger subliminal thoughts in minds of men. See, later Bhishma took a vow that he would not marry, so that the children of fisherwoman Satyavati would rule the country. That was also another crossing of “birth-based-caste-associated immobility barrier”. no doubt.
    It takes a subliminal mind to understand all that!

    Sri Rama was motivated by the magnificence of the thought of ‘crossing of birth-based-caste-associated immobility barrier’ when he took food from Shabari.
    Probably Rahul Gandi is also motivated by some such magnificent thought when he goes to Dalit’s homes. Great men, after all.

    >>>> “Such barriers exist in different forms in the West also, such as race-based barriers”

    Yeah they just ‘exist’. not invented by self-aggrandizing minds.

    The blanket induced stupor is getting very subliminal.

    >>> “Would you say that those who believe in birth-based-caste-associated immobility were not practising some aspect of Bhartiya samskriti?

    ‘those who believe in…’. In your stuporic subliminance you failed to identify the ‘those’.

    It is western characteristic to talk about non-existent ones- such as the farter in heaven, it comes with sleeping under blankets.

  • x

    >>> “So, you are keen to defend him, take long detours, etc. Yet, on this, you do not want to take a position.”

    His statements recommending peaceful coexistence and fostering respect which are public and his actions benefitting society, such as in the field of education, health, living facilities, are what were appreciated.

    A conclusion on whether ‘SSB was self-opinionated and guilty of self-aggrandizement’ needs deeper study, which even you apparently have not done.

    >>> “You are also willing to delude yourself that it may not have been his own idea, or, that the video might be fiction.”

    Considering all angles is wise.

    >>> “As if he had no choice in the matter even if the ideas were suggested by his followers. Wasn’t he their spiritual leader who should have been correcting them on the nonsense?”

    Nonsense is if these actions are done for self-aggrandizement. If they are for play- without loss to anybody, they are allowable.

    >>> “And, yes, I know his preachings are good, but that’s not what we are arguing about. His preachings were not unique to him and have existed prior to him.

    That does not mean that his advocacy of them become meaningless and is to be discounted.

    >>> “And, he didn’t even follow some of it himself. ”

    Which ones ?

    >>> “SSB’s scale and following do not qualify him as a mere mosquito in the grand scheme of things.”

    1. Does he have ‘following’ as that of christiandom or ummah (talking about character here, not no) ? Are his followers similarly demarcated, separated from rest of populace ? Do they propagate separation and exclusivism as others ?
    2. Does he recommend conversion/decimation like others ? Do they indulge in covert and overt machinations to subvert and convert population ?
    How can you put his followers on similar scale as the others ?

    The ‘mosquito-ness’ refers to the significance and immediacy of harm compared to that from lion.

    >>> “But, he is institutionalized as well, huge organization and business around him.”

    ‘institutionalized’ was not referring to establishing of an institution.

    institutionalized referred to instituting systems and structures that spread roots to subvert the character of society and self-procreates, which is what various western systems do, compared to which even the worst allegation against SSB seem mosquitoic.

  • y

    which even you apparently have not done

    Oh, for me his act of producing chains for people, etc (regardless of whether they are materialized) is more than sufficient proof of utter nonsense, charlatanism (or delusion). And, that’s in spite of his so-called good deeds on which I asked questions, which were not answered at all and what was answered, was unsatisfactory. Don’t give me the selective endorsement of good actions only bullshit.

    You, on the other hand, may need “further study”… help yourself. As I said, I have my answers. I can only hope that you be honest to yourself.

    If they are for play- without loss to anybody, they are allowable.

    Hilarious!

    That does not mean that his advocacy of them become meaningless and is to be discounted.

    To me they do become meaningless coming from him, because of the surrounding nonsense. To you they may not… your choice. If you like his preachings, they are not unique and irreplaceable and can be sourced from elsewhere. If you are willing to be part of a potential (since you need further study, to me its quite obvious) charade, you are allowing yourself to be blinded or misled which is inexcusable.

    How can you put his followers on similar scale as the others ?

    Because they are as brainwashed, deluded and blinded, just like products of other systems. Just look at yourself, as a prime example. You, sir, lend strength to my opinion on this matter.

    spread roots to subvert the character of society and self-procreates

    Indeed, my allegation is that the SSB institutions do so.

    You are just repeating yourself at this point. And, I find your answers duplicitous/inconsistent. Please stop spamming. Thanks.

  • anup

    hilarious Q&A format,dr. dey!! humour is a good way to go!!

  • Kumar Narasimha

    Hi Atanu and all others interested in SSB:

    Here’s a link to the final part of a 3-part article on Sathya Sai Baba, by Pundita (a very popular blogger analyst on US foreign policy).

    http://pundita.blogspot.com/2011/05/there-is-no-contraption-sathya-sai-baba.html

    As for me, I agree with most of what Atanu has said except on the point that SSB caused any harm to Sanatan Dharma.In my opinion, he has single handedly stopped large scale conversions to Christianity, at least in Anantapur district and surrounding areas.

    Some points that bug me, and I am groping around for answers:

    1.How did a 11-12 year old student start doing ‘miracles’? On what basis can a 14 year old boy declare himself a yogi/sanyasi, and start commanding followers? I mean, who taught him magic? And more importantly, who taught this rural boy all about our scriptures, puranas etc? Who gave him the basic training to hone his natural talent to write kirtans, and compose music?

    2.I believe SSB never visited the US/EU or any Western nation.How did all these people land up in a remote village in rural AP, and become his disciples? I mean, these are not gullible Indians.A good number of them claimed to have seen him in their dreams, and these people happen to be doctors, engineers and other scientifically trained people. What is the nature of this magic?

    The questions around his premises being used as a hoard for black money by the politicians and businessmen, the role played by his Trustees, and his own generosity towards scum like Deve Gowda etc are more easy to explain.But I am still flummoxed by the ‘Tantra Master’ thingy.

  • Amit S

    @x

    In the last blogpost you said (replying here because the comments there seem closed)

    > capitalism that you defined have zero relevance or meaning in bharatiya samskriti.

    Here are a few definitions of capitalism for you:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitalism
    http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/whatiscap.html

    Capitalism only means private (as opposed to public) ownership of production and trade. Private ownership of production and trade has been the root of Indian prosperity, whenever or wherever we were prosperous, since time immemorial. So, this is definitely relevant, even if the word doesn’t exist in Indic vocabulary.

    There is a common misunderstanding that capitalism means “profit maximization at all costs”. Maximization of profit at all other (social) costs is surely practiced by many corporations and capitalists, but that is not the definition of capitalism. That is the definition of social insensitivity in capitalism, or “adharma” in capitalism. I repeat myself by saying that Capitalism is not inherently good nor evil. Capitalism needs to be supplemented with an understanding of society and an intention to sustain it. That is the difference between a large corporation trying to do an honest business for eternity, and a small time shopkeeper trying to sell adulterated food for a quick buck. (Sorry, could not resist pulling a fast one on those who usually associate dishonesty with large corporations and honesty with “mom-and-pop” stores. :) )

    The difference between Western and Indic approaches to understanding the world is that the former isolates the world into simpler parts or systems (such as economics or malaria) and endeavors to build clear pictures about each part or system, while the latter tries to build a holistic picture without going into details about each part or system in an organized manner or detail. The advantage of the former is clarity about parts or systems while its disadvantage is lack of clear understanding about interplay of different parts or systems, and vice versa for the latter. Take the example of Western medicine vs. Indic medicine. In Yoga, everything is related to breath and is impacted by Pranayama, while the Western medicine needs to see real symptoms of something being wrong to cure it effectively through drugs with side effect management being an afterthought. The advantage of the Pranayama is general good health, but it cannot cure you once you have an acute condition, such as malaria or certain types of cancer, which the Western medicine can. I think that we need both coupled with a dispassionate understanding rather than painting either system as “evil” or “useless”. To put it in Hindi, dono main se kisi ne bhi ghode nahi beche hain, dono ne dimaag ladaya hai… alag alag disha main. (Neither people just wasted their time, they just thought in different ways).

    If you still didn’t understand then it is my failure as a teacher. My hope definitely is that even if you don’t concede today, you will think about it when you go to bed until the day you have some clear understanding. I would consider your abuses and your defiance of reason as a small price in increasing understanding (vidya) in the world. Because, Vidya dadati vinayam, vinaya dadati paatrataam, paatratva dhanamaapnoti, dhanaat dharmam tatatsukham.

  • sai

    Starting with a clarification: while my name would mark me out as a follower of SSB, the fact is that I am not. However, I have been born into a family of SSB followers and have a had chance of interacting quite closely with dozens of Sai devotees (as they call themselves) for an extended period of time. While Atanu makes lots of sense with his opinions on SSB for a neutral reader with his no-nonsense approach, I would venture to say that it takes a somewhat shallow approach to what is definitely a very important socio-religious phenomena of modern Hindu society.

    The last sentence requires some explanation – we have had godmen and saints throughout our history. But very few have attained a pan-national stature (leave alone an international one)with a mass following, especially during their own lifetimes. SSB’s namesake, Shirdi Baba, (interestingly, claimed by the former as his predecessor) is probably one of the most famous saints in India today, but he was not known much beyond Maharashtra while he was alive. The rise of the SSB phenomena with millions of devotees across India and beyond, obviously is attributable to the fact the he arrived at a time of dramatic information revolution globally, quite smartly leveraged by him. The short point is that he has been a pioneer in this field of taking Indian godmanship to a global audience – a path which has now been followed by other charismatic godmen and women – Mata Amritanandamayi, Ravishankar, Baba Ramdev – being some of the more successful ones that i can think of. The above is merely an observation – it is not meant to be either a defence or criticism of SSB.

    Now, the question one needs to ask oneself is why do millions of people flock to him and are quite willing to believe that he is God.Especially, given that a major part of his followers consist of well-educated middle/upper class people – not saying that automatically makes fraud-proof, just that maybe they are relatively less gullible to trickery. As a neutral observer, what has always baffled me is how some of the smartest, very eminent people fell for him (no, I am not referring to Sachin!) – the great jurist Nani Palkhivala, APJ Abdul Kalam, Vajpayee and hundreds of others including judges, sportsmen, judges, journalists, businessmen and especially musicians; including the great MS Subbalakshmi (who herself is considered as god by many!, I have seen a lot of these artists becoming his followers.

    Now, the hold that SSB had on millions of his followers actually had very little to do with his magic tricks – something I can vouchsafe based on having known lots of Sai devotees. It is not like these guys think – wow, this guy produces things out of thin air, so he must be God! you will find that, in the case of many followers, SSB is credited with many life-changing incidents in their lives. This would include “miraculous” cure from major diseases/accidents, solutions to some of their very intractable financial/personal problems or most importantly, a sense of spiritual upliftment/peace after meeting him. So, as I said, this is all quite baffling and requires a satisfactory answer before we completely dismiss SSB as a mere trickster. One argument is that these “miracles” are basically an outcome of auto-suggestion falsely attributed to an outside force, SSB in this case. But I dont find that entirely convincing – doesnt explain why a few godmen get such big followings while most others dont. COuld it be the case that these persons genuinely have great psychic/spiritual powers – while tempermentally, I am inclined to dismiss this as fraud, my experience with SSB followers gives me pause.