If it did not come with such label, you may accept it as fact ?

Really? You think I wouldn’t know a science fiction movie if it wasn’t labeled as fiction? Especially, one labeled 2012! Sir, you need some urgent help.

The possibility of tampering cannot be ruled out, so it is inconclusive.

Lol!!

though you treated the terms casually for sarcastic effect

Wow, you understood sarcasm?!! Unbelievable!! So, why do you go on to attack it as something not casual and devoid of sarcasm?

When people respond well to what is ‘expected’ of them, like following the shepherd, that makes it easier for the dog.
‘Democracy’ is a great thing, thank dog, america is bringing it to all parts of the world.In India, democracy has provided some dynasties with luxurious livelihood without doing honest work.

Democracy when properly implemented is for, by, of the people. There is no “following the shepherd” business. By the way, SSB followers are like followers of a shepherd. You should apply your argument to followers of SSB. It is much more applicable in that context.

And, I agree about the dynasties, but that is not an inherent flaw of the idea of democracy. Many of those dynasties are ardent followers of SSB. Surely you know that and should have a problem with it? No?

But that itself is no reason to consider that just because ‘authorities’ did not investigate, there is something fishy.

Why not? Its the job definition of the authorities to investigate such matters (again, irrespective of their competence). Something must have caused them to not do their job? You do know that collusion is widespread in our society?

you have accepted some ‘authorities’ to lord over you

No, I have not. Please stop making nonsensical assumptions.

Their economics is also such a mask, science too, quite often.

western science is not a mask for exploitation.

Economic policies established by who ?

By politicians who incidentally are also ardent followers of SSB (for example, Manmohan Singh). Perhaps, they have been good students of SSB? Because if they were good students of the west, we would atleast be on par economically with those countries?

Your suspicion is enough ?You haven’t established that his means were bad.Whereas there are million others whose means are very much established as bad, yet do not get your scrutiny.

As I have said, much of it is proved (by others) and not mere suspicion. And, it is certainly enough for me. Who gives a shit about my scrutiny? And, why do you assume that I don’t have a problem with other criminals? That is monumentally stupid. Again, yet again for the nth time, your argument centers on relative comparison with other criminals. He is good because he is not bad as the others. Please stop using this perverse logic.

put in a blanket called infidel/Kaffir/primitive/tribal/inferior

Please re-read because I explained what I mean by wretched. I meant none of those terms.

They are mostly quite well off too, in fact many are among the richest in the land.

Yep, the same rich people that you denounced as being west influenced and having profited from our flawed democracy. Why are you enamored by them now?

And, you do know that cricket is a game invented in the west. Since you hate everything of the west, since western economics and science is a mask for exploitation, surely western sports must also be so? You should be consistent and hate Sachin also, no?

west-induced myopia

Nope, you happily made assumptions and proved nonsense in your own mind, even when I agreed on superiority of Indian philosophy. But, you sure have SSB induced myopia, actually no, SSB induced blindness and mental malfunction. Please get help!

lose attention that should have been correctly given elsewhere.

I agree. I should not have attended to your comments. I am really sorry about that.

If it did not come with such label, you may accept it as fact ?

>>> “Are you saying that the SSB video is also fiction? ”

The possibility of tampering cannot be ruled out, so it is inconclusive. That suspicion is also due to the fact that many false cases have been foisted on so called swamis or gurus in the past. Kanchi Shankaracharya, for eg.

>>> “ “You, Sir, have internalised the western christian’s fabrication of ‘gawd’ and uses that in your thinking subconsciously.” I have done nothing of the sort, not even close! Why do you assume?”

In one of the earlier comment you mentioned- “ I bow to him, for his wisdom in not inciting a riot,…Surely, he must be God. …. And, what distorted, messed up mind do you have to equate sainthood with absence of criminal activity? …. Lots of NGOs, philanthropists….but why do you treat him as God?”.
There you used the word God and sainthood as if those words had some meaning. In effect you accepted the fabrication of christians that god is someone great and sainthood is something good (though you treated the terms casually for sarcastic effect).

Your later comment- “You should distinguish between your notion of the “west” and orthodox Christians which is probably what you really want to refer to.” implies that you consider there is some difference between the notions of orthodox christians and the rest of the west regarding god and sainthood. There may well be, in a superficial way. But the point is that ‘west’ and the west-influenced implicitly use the terms ‘god’ and ‘sainthood’ as if those words are something respectworthy, like you did. That is the result of subconscious internalisation of fabricated falsehoods as a result of western influence through education/media.

>>> “Do you always repose so much ‘faith’ and confidence in ‘authorities’ and their abilities ? Well, it wouldn’t be all that unexpected in a democratic society.”

When people respond well to what is ‘expected’ of them, like following the shepherd, that makes it easier for the dog.
‘Democracy’ is a great thing, thank dog, america is bringing it to all parts of the world.

In India, democracy has provided some dynasties with luxurious livelihood without doing honest work.
It is different from how it was in the time of the mughals- they didn’t buy votes then.

>>> “my point was limited to the fact that the authorities did not investigate to begin with (irrespective of their competence). And, that itself is suspicious.”

Being suspicious towards ‘authorities’ is a good thing, especially when they are west-influenced ‘authorities’, considering past record.
But that itself is no reason to consider that just because ‘authorities’ did not investigate, there is something fishy.

>>> “The fact that authorities don’t execute their responsibilities … building canals, etc which should have been done by the authorities. As I said, that is the crux of the matter.”

The crux of the matter is that you have accepted some ‘authorities’ to lord over you, organize society, find solutions, police people. etc. A rehash of the christian theme of good lord dog watching over us and showing us the way using his shepherds.

>>> “You must be nuts to think that the West does not allow independent thinking….there are enough independent thinkers in the west.”

‘West’ stands for the dominant culture of the western countries, characterized by aggrandization, right from the time of Alexander-Romans-Church-Portugali/Spainish/Franco/British pirates/slave traders/Belgium-Germany-Italy Colonizers /racists/fascists/nazis -US/USSR/Communists/Capitalists.

That culturelessness of self-aggrandization does not allow independent thinking

There are of course some people in those countries who realize that and act against that.
but not many.

>>> “I wasn’t talking about religious studies in the West. You do know that there are other sorts of education ….”

The so-called religion of west is nothing but cloaked system for exploitation. religion is a mask. and that is not the only mask west has. Their economics is also such a mask, science too, quite often.
The aggrandizing trait encompass every field it touches.

>>> “I don’t think Indians can claim superiority in social values today (and that’s not because of a shortcoming in their fundamental philosophy or genetic condition) but more due to the economic policies.”

Economic policies established by who ?
propagated by who ?

>>> “No, you missed my point. Which was that, SSB is in the same class as those criminals, probably worse. ”

Your suspicion is enough ?

>>> “you…talked about the fact that SSB did a few good things implying that one should overlook the means. ”

‘Means’ ? did he kill anybody to grab money or did people willingly give money to him ?

You haven’t established that his means were bad.
Whereas there are million others whose means are very much established as bad, yet do not get your scrutiny.

>>> “The way in which all indians have been put in one basket and disparaged again points to the monotheistic mindset, that condemns any non-believer as inferior heathen fit to be disparaged and killed off. What the.. ? Who ever said that Indians are inferior, etc?”

You had earlier said that – “The adulation is disproportionate and it really points to the wretched lives that Indians lead, and that they have to clutch at straws.”
There you put ‘Indians’ into one basket, implying that they (a) have adulation towards SSB, (b) disproportionate at that, (c) that is because they lead wretched lives (I personally wouldn’t mind leading the wretched life of Sachin Tendulkar!), (d) and they have to clutch at straws, in effect you put a blanket over all Indians and put some labels on it.
That is the way west works.
Anybody who does not believe their fabricated falsehoods is put in a blanket called infidel/Kaffir/primitive/tribal/inferior.

Fact being that adulation to SSB is expressed by only a few indians, a fraction of population. They are mostly quite well off too, in fact many are among the richest in the land. And they are not leading miserable lives clutching at any straws. It is your myopia, caused by west induced notions, that leads you to view things wrongly and lose attention that should have been correctly given elsewhere.

Thats the way west-induced myopia works.

Watch a Hollywood video, say 2012, and you’ll accept everything there as truth ?

You do know that 2012 is a science “fiction” movie, right? You want to equate that genre with a real recording? Are you saying that the SSB video is also fiction? Geez, I was stupid to engage a nutty person.

You, Sir, have internalised the western christian’s fabrication of ‘gawd’ and uses that in your thinking subconsciously.

I have done nothing of the sort, not even close! Why do you assume? In fact I referred to other messengers of God as lowly competition. So, how can I be labeled an endorser?

Your whole lot of rambling about dog, abrahamic relgions, west, etc, etc is unnecessary. And, ok, lets leave the definition of God behind since you claim that I do not know how it is defined in the Vedas. Fine, lets leave that out then.

Do you always repose so much ‘faith’ and confidence in ‘authorities’ and their abilities ?

Well, it wouldn’t be all that unexpected in a democratic society. However, I do not have blind faith in authorities. But that was not my point, my point was limited to the fact that the authorities did not investigate to begin with (irrespective of their competence). And, that itself is suspicious.

The fact that authorities don’t execute their responsibilities allows people like SSB to get away. It allows a vacuum in which he can thrive and gain brownie points by building canals, etc which should have been done by the authorities. As I said, that is the crux of the matter.

That is also the way west works, holding the attention of the sheep through circuses, so that they don’t do independent thinking.

You must be nuts to think that the West does not allow independent thinking. Sure there’s a bit (sometimes a lot) of Orwell and Huxley but there are enough independent thinkers in the west.

‘Educated’ or poisoned/subverted to a monotheistic view of life ?

I wasn’t talking about religious studies in the West. You do know that there are other sorts of education (which do not touch religion), right? You do know that there are numerous critics of the monotheistic view in the west, right?

And you look upto them as your ‘objective’ shepherds ?

Nope, I was pointing to education as the cause of objectivity. And, not religious education, just to clarify.

The history is full of evidence of how much ’social values’ west has, and how much ’self-centered’ indians are.

I’m not talking about historic comparisons though. I like Vedic/Hindu philosophy and it is superior to Western religion/philosophy in many ways (certainly as you point out the genocides in the west). Granted also that I do not know about Vedas as much as I probably should. But, comparison is between today’s India and today’s west. I don’t think Indians can claim superiority in social values today (and that’s not because of a shortcoming in their fundamental philosophy or genetic condition) but more due to the economic policies.

Pity is that the fees you paid- your ability to independent thinking, was exhorbitant.

Again, you are making assumptions that are wrong! Also, I am not interested in defending the west. Why would you think I am a defender of the west? I have no interest in that.

The point was that the far tooo manyyy criminals getting respect in society deserve much more attention and scrutiny that is instead being undeservedly wasted on Sathya Sai Baba.

No, you missed my point. Which was that, SSB is in the same class as those criminals, probably worse. And, the bar is not set by westerners, but by Indians in India (today’s India by the way).

Perhaps you overlooked this statement in prev post- “Means, ends, as well as the motivation, all matter.”

No, I did not. Because, after making that statement, you conveniently forgot about it and talked about the fact that SSB did a few good things implying that one should overlook the means. So, you in fact overlooked your own statement which is why I repeated my point.

The way in which all indians have been put in one basket and disparaged again points to the monotheistic mindset, that condemns any non-believer as inferior heathen fit to be disparaged and killed off.

What the.. ? Who ever said that Indians are inferior, etc? When I say that they lead wretched lives, I mean economically due to bad economic policies. I also mean education-wise and not in terms of religious education. And, I certainly don’t imply any sort of inferior genetic condition. You misconstrue completely….

West influenced indians have managed to disparage and destroy bharatiya samskriti to a large extent

Well, there are those pseudo-secularists I suppose (and others) but I am not one of those. But, I don’t think that SSB was a good example of bharatiya samskriti either. I am not attacking his teachings or bharatiya samskriti which are the same as preached by other wise men. But, I have a problem with the man and his other actions. I hope you can distinguish between those two.

Btw, to this commentator, SSB was no different from yourself.

Yep, God is in everybody, etc. I love and endorse that shit man, I really, honestly do. But, I do believe I am not a proven charlatan, and a “suspected” diddler of young boys like SSB. I have other flaws but don’t insult me!

Watch a Hollywood video, say 2012, and you’ll accept everything there as truth ?

>>> “You should distinguish between your notion of the “west” and orthodox Christians which is probably what you really want to refer to.”

Is it ? Then what do you mean when you mention ‘god’ in your posts, if it is not what the christians imagine ?
You, Sir, have internalised the western christian’s fabrication of ‘gawd’ and uses that in your thinking subconsciously.

In Indian context, there is no dog in heaven.

>>> “And, then Hinduism also has Swarg and Apsaras, etc. ”

No. 1. ‘hinduism’ is a fabrication of the westerners. There is not an indigenous text other than west influenced that talks about ‘hinduism’. Please refer vedas,puranas,itihasa.

No.2, Swarg, how did you assume that ‘swarg’ is the same as heaven ? Have you researched into that subject before coming to that conclusion, or have you accepted whatever some west influenced idiot told you ?

>>> “And, I don’t see how the difference between the concepts of God between religions is relevant.”

Ignorance is no excuse.

For abrahamic religions there is a dog in heaven that dispenses favours to followers.

In indian context, the ultimate is the realization of yourself. Not pleasing an entity elsewhere.

The dog in heaven is a jealous dog, that demands subservience by all men, and requires its followers to convert the unbelievers or kill them. With that fabricated story, the abrahamic religionists have been destroying everything in this world for millenniums, like a cancer.

India, on the other hand have been nurturing and sustaining flourishing of life in all spheres without damage to anything.

Which means that application of west-fabricated theories of dogs in indian context and disparaging an indian person as not being one is meaningless.

>>> “I’d argue that SSB is no God even using Hindu/Vedic definitions.”

Understand veda first before claiming ablity to use ‘definitions therein’.

>>> No, no investigation was done by the authorities and that points to collusion. If investigations were taken up by the authorities …… but that’s not the case.”

Do you always repose so much ‘faith’ and confidence in ‘authorities’ and their abilities ?
That is the way west works. See, there are these shepherds who are ‘authorised’ by the central ‘authority’ (the dog) to lead the sheep. The sheep are required to look upto the ‘authorities’ and lead their life, reposing ‘faith’ and confidence in the authorities and their abilities. That is the way west works.

As far as abilities go, in these matters, no one can beat the christian organisations in digging up muck and throwing it. The fact that there is little to show after decades of excavation strongly points to the possibility that there may be not much in there.

We can of course continue the digging, as in the case of NaMo, presumed guilty, till they dig up sufficient ‘evidence’.

That is also the way west works, holding the attention of the sheep through circuses, so that they don’t do independent thinking.

>>> ” It is not ‘blasphemy’ nor ‘irrational’ – the labels that west educated..” …..I don’t get what is self-centered:”

Self-centered is the tendency to denounce anything and everything that does not conform to one’s own viewpoint as ‘irrational’ or ‘blasphemy’. The abrahamic religionists used the term blasphemy for any thought that went against their idea of dog in heaven. The ‘scientific-minded’ west educated person today invariably uses the term ‘irrational’ to term anything that does not conform to his view point. This tendency to denouce any other view point stems from the monotheistic character of the western systems that moulds these people’s thinking.

>>> ” In the West, most are educated …”

‘Educated’ or poisoned/subverted to a monotheistic view of life ?

>>> “…do not consider providing water to a village or building a super speciality hospital to be an extraordinary event ”

Yeah, thats why all these buggers come here and tom tom their charity drives and foundations that are thinly veiled attempts to push covert agendas.

>>> “So, they can objectively look at the game that SSB plays. ”

And you look upto them as your ‘objective’ shepherds ?

>>>> “many Indians (educated only in India) ”

by an educated system established by the colonizing british, and continued with by their sepoys.

>>> “And, by the way the “west” has a better notion of social values. Indians are a lot more self-centered. I’m not the only one saying so, check with Narayan Murthy for example.”

The history is full of evidence of how much ‘social values’ west has, and how much ‘self-centered’ indians are.

You have been a very good student to the westerners.
Pity is that the fees you paid- your ability to independent thinking, was exhorbitant.

>>> “Just look at how in India, …”

which india, ? the one run by british educated sepoys, using the systems of maldministration that british established to loot this country ? or the bharat whose roots extend to Saraswati valley and beyond in history, which is still not destroyed completely ?

>>> “The bar is set really low for someone to be labeled good in India”

The ‘bar’ is set by the westerners, set too high up, at a fabricated ‘immaculate’ concept of gawd in heaven that you must only look upto and keep looking up to, so that you do not look at yourself and each other and realize yourself.

But it is only the west influenced that accept such ‘bars’.

The bharateeya sets his own bar, makes his own decisons, forms his own conclusions, realizes himself.

But you missed the point there in the previous post. The point was that the far tooo manyyy criminals getting respect in society deserve much more attention and scrutiny that is instead being undeservedly wasted on Sathya Sai Baba.

>>> “you do not get the point that – ends do not justify the means”

Perhaps you overlooked this statement in prev post- “Means, ends, as well as the motivation, all matter.”

>>> ” The sly acts are not merely a “may” have been done, the proof is there for those who care to see.”

Like in movies ?

>>> “The adulation is disproportionate and it really points to the wretched lives that Indians lead, and that they have to clutch at straws.”

The way in which all indians have been put in one basket and disparaged again points to the monotheistic mindset, that condemns any non-believer as inferior heathen fit to be disparaged and killed off.

West influenced indians have managed to disparage and destroy bharatiya samskriti to a large extent, it being not conforming to the way of thinking propagated by the west that moulded their thinking, but not quite; not yet.

>>> “Lastly, SSB also preached that one shouldn’t look at the Internet…….So, you are compromising your faith in him by writing comments on this blog.”

“compromising…. your faith…”

compromise, faith, are all characteristics of you west influenced.
bharateeya do not compromise, on dharma. They don’t have ‘faith’, only realization.

Btw, to this commentator, SSB was no different from yourself.

A video is conclusive evidence ?

Why is it not?!

Is that the logic ?

No, quite clearly it is not.

other ‘messengers’ of ‘gawd’ who had done such acts

Oh, I didn’t know SSB is to be considered against such lowly competition only.

NaMo is irrelevant to my arguments. I didn’t say anything about him.

It is west that has the idea of a ‘dawg’ who sits in haven, surrounded by angels and fairies.

You should distinguish between your notion of the “west” and orthodox Christians which is probably what you really want to refer to. And, then Hinduism also has Swarg and Apsaras, etc. And, I don’t see how the difference between the concepts of God between religions is relevant. I’d argue that SSB is no God even using Hindu/Vedic definitions.

no conclusive case could be made against the Sathya Sai Baba itself is almost conclusive evidence in the opposite direction.

No, no investigation was done by the authorities and that points to collusion. If investigations were taken up by the authorities and they did not find anything, I would agree with you but that’s not the case.

It is not ‘blasphemy’ nor ‘irrational’ – the labels that west educated(read indoctrinated/brainwashed) paste on anything that does not go with their self-centered worldview.

Huh? One can argue the issue without resorting to inferiority complexes vis-a-vis the West. I don’t get what is self-centered: In the West, most are educated and do not consider providing water to a village or building a super speciality hospital to be an extraordinary event – a good deed sure. So, they can objectively look at the game that SSB plays. Can you please explan: what is self-centered about someone educated in the West labeling something as irrational? And, there are many, many Indians (educated only in India) who have the same opposition to SSB.

And, by the way the “west” has a better notion of social values. Indians are a lot more self-centered. I’m not the only one saying so, check with Narayan Murthy for example. Just look at how in India, one only takes care of one’s own and trashes the rest of society. So, your arguments again don’t make sense to me.

But, there are far toooo manyyy criminals doing all these things daily, and getting respect in society.

Lol, this the crux of the matter, isn’t it? The bar is set really low for someone to be labeled good in India.

In the overall scheme of things, the benefits he has given to society far far outweighs any sly act he may(?) have done. Doesn’t it ?

No, it does not. 1) As I said, you do not get the point that – ends do not justify the means. 2) The sly acts are not merely a “may” have been done, the proof is there for those who care to see. 3) The adulation is disproportionate and it really points to the wretched lives that Indians lead, and that they have to clutch at straws.

I will give you this though. Blind faith can be powerful. You can have blind faith in any idealogy and do wonders with it. But, it doesn’t exonerate the idealogy.

Lastly, SSB also preached that one shouldn’t look at the Internet because people are spewing lies there about him. So, you are compromising your faith in him by writing comments on this blog.

Why only compare with OBL or Hitler, even Sonia Gandi has millions of followers. perhaps LKA too!
Obamma definitely. Karunanidhi, sure.
Ok, since the fact of having millions of followers does not prove their integrity, let us condemn Sathya Sai Baba also as of doubtful integrity. Is that the logic ?

Instigating of riot, murder, rape etc., was in the context of certain other ‘messengers’ of ‘gawd’ who had done such acts, for eg., Fra.Xa.(of goa inquisition infamy) and the prophet(you know who), yet are considered unquestionably ‘dowg’s own’.

Lets see, NaMo almost stands exornated just by the fact that despite a decade of persistent efforts by the best in the business, no evidence could be unearthed to fix him.
There is a sherlock holmes story in which the silence of the dog was crucial evidence.
In a similar way, the fact that despite DECADES of persistent efforts by the best in the business (read evangelists), no conclusive case could be made against the Sathya Sai Baba itself is almost conclusive evidence in the opposite direction.

As regards him being ‘gawd’,

It is west that has the idea of a ‘dawg’ who sits in haven, surrounded by angels and fairies.

In bharat, bhagavan is always considered all around you, within you. veda are product of that realization.

Some people express certain powers (not referring to vibhuti/gold) more than others, and are respected so much more.

It is not ‘blasphemy’ nor ‘irrational’- the labels that west educated(read indoctrinated/brainwashed) paste on anything that does not go with their self-centered worldview.

Means, ends, as well as the motivation, all matter.

In the overall scheme of things,
- did he break up families ? cause fissure in society, cause damage to anybody ?
- did he grab land, livelihood, life of people/ other beings ?
- did he exhort his followers to silence his critics ?
- did he ask anybody to build an empire for him ?

Not doing these things dont make him a great person or a gawd.

But, there are far toooo manyyy criminals doing all these things daily, and getting respect in society.

In the overall scheme of things, the benefits he has given to society far far outweighs any sly act he may(?) have done. Doesn’t it ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BVEJDPrGpM

When the kid yelled, everybody realized that fact.

You bet. 2850 people “liked” that youtube video and 452 “disliked” it. Not everybody, but the majority that expressed their opinion on that video did realize the fact. You are in the minority by being blind to the evidence.

Only a handful have bought into the ‘fact/fiction’ that emperor has no clothes.

So says who? I would argue that the majority of the people understand that the emperor has no clothes, but don’t argue against people with blind faith, and get on with their lives ignoring the nonsense wisely. Millions of followers doesn’t guarantee majority or correctness in this country/world. Osama Bin Laden has millions of followers too. Hitler had millions of followers too. Do you care to see the stupidity of your argument?

You can know the path walked by a person by the footprints he left in the sand.

Absolutely, for example, just look at the video!

In the case of Sathya Sai Baba, there have NOT been any riot instigated by the Baba, no murder/loot/rape. Instead, there are undisputable evidence of good acts, empowering of people, helping people take control of their own lives, millions of people vouch for that.

Wow, he didn’t instigate a riot, didn’t even commit a murder or two, eh? Rape surely he must have committed. What? No? I am indeed frikking impressed. I bow to him, for his wisdom in not inciting a riot, committing a murder, rape must be immense. Surely, he must be God. What kind of childish argument is this? And, what distorted, messed up mind do you have to equate sainthood with absence of criminal activity? Btw, there have been allegations of rape. Sure, he is innocent until proved, but the fact that no investigation was done leaves people to use their own judgment.

Lots of NGOs, philanthropists do good deeds and many have done greater deeds and some with their own money, not just donations, which are intended for charity anyway, but why do you treat him as God? Imran Khan opened a cancer hospital and helps poor patients. Is he a reincarnation of Sai Baba, too if he says so and starts doing stupid, magic tricks? If you pray to him because he provided water to the village, then you should also pray to the Delhi Jal Board. They won’t give you any vibhuti though, sorry.

Ultimately, it does not matter if he called himself reincarnation of Sai Baba or Bodhisattva, or if indeed it was so. The message he spread is in congruence with theirs. That is what matters.

His means don’t matter? His followers don’t seem to understand the basic concept of – ends don’t justify the means. Did he himself follow his own preachings or those of Sai Baba. Quite clearly not. The verdict is indeed clear.

When the kid yelled, everybody realized that fact.

In the present instance, despite decades of yelling and hollering (like what is happening in the case of NaMo), millions strongly are of the opinion that the emperor is very well clothed. And hundreds of millions, otherwise disinterested, are also not convinced that the emperor has no clothes. Only a handful have bought into the ‘fact/fiction’ that emperor has no clothes.

Of course, the kid and his followers may be gifted with superior eyesight, but it may also be in order to take a second look.

You can know the path walked by a person by the footprints he left in the sand. In the case of Sathya Sai Baba, there have NOT been any riot instigated by the Baba, no murder/loot/rape. Instead, there are undisputable evidence of good acts, empowering of people, helping people take control of their own lives, millions of people vouch for that.

The verdict is a given, as far as the footprints go.

Ultimately, it does not matter if he called himself reincarnation of Sai Baba or Bodhisattva, or if indeed it was so. The message he spread is in congruence with theirs. That is what matters.

namaste

Regarding the statement so many people can not be wrong, sometimes one person if correct can be a majority over many, like the kid who yelled the emperor has no clothes.

saibaba an expert magician like pc sorcar who once made the train disappear. but pc sorcar didn’t claim himeself to be an avatar just for being a magician.

@Atanu: “People like me bring to the market a point of view…” Interesting thing is when you point out the false advertising of SSB, his followers (the consumers) want to flog you. It is not the case with most other products.

2. There will always be need for a government which provides strong regulations for almost every transaction in the market.
3. Since some companies/people will end up with extra ordinarily large wealth because of information asymmetry it is not entirely unreasonable to ensure that they are heavily taxed to ensure equal opportunities for other members of the society

thanks for addressing the hoary chestnut about information assymetry.without information asymmetry,there would be no trade at all.so atanu essentially forgot that from econ101
second,who are we to determine what is the value ssb’s followers gained from their transactions with him? all that pareto efficient curves mean nothing -value is totally subjective.only statists would love to insert their favorite weapon monopolist to confiscate voluntarily and freely accumulated wealth while completely forgetting the nature of the state itself -the state is a monopoly of force.it is not an animal of voluntary transactions at all.can someone not interested in the state,opt out of it without penalty?
all that well intentioned taxation is theft by your favorite goonda.so lets not pass off that as efficiency enhancing

the govt cannot regulate.it can only distort.the govt is not made of all knowing well intentioned people (if you are assuming so,you fail engineering 101) .public choice theory comes to mind.the govt is made of people like you and me and ssb -all interested in themselves.so what makes them better placed to appear interested in being”fair” is a convenient myth.

“Now if we believe that markets are efficient the said car dealer should soon go out of business. In reality this rarely happens.”

So who said that “this” market is efficient? as someone up above took pains to explain – the whole country is a mess – when crooks rule the land and create lop sided asymmetric means to win every single war and battle, how do you expect the market to be efficient?
How do you expect conmen/godmen/ to disappear due to “efficient market theories” when the referee/umpire himself is in the game, rigging it and disrespecting every rule that he himself made?

“About RSS and BJP –
I spent 10 years of my life going to a RSS shakha everyday. And there was nothing more disappointing than the BJP led NDA government that came into power and proved to be even more corrupt and inept at government than the congress government that preceded it. “

- really? so you mean to say that the BJP/NDA alliance was more corrupt than today’s UPA-II? Also btw the BJP is no saint and when your playing field is muck, you need to rake it – so even Modi ain’t no saint and he ain’t playing on the green grass but atleast he practices economic freedom and has ruled by law and pulled out millions from poverty (yeah and don’t get on 2002 because I ain’t buying it)

About Antonia and her minion —
It is sad to see the scorn and derision that is heaped on Sonia Gandhi primarily based on her country of birth or religion. I would like to think that both these attributes are irrelevant to how India is being mis-governed by her (and her minion). Do you think that she would be less corrupt and better at government if she was an Indian born Hindu?

- again really? This one Catholic woman has wreaked havoc on India – go read Gurumurthy, Swamy and find out the corruption that this evil wretch has unleashed on India – for that matter if you had your eyes open and had a bit of sense you would see – you won’t need an expert to understand this woman and her evil senseless mindless corrupt ways. In 6 years we have not yet understood this strange woman – what are her economic views/political views/social views and we are left to wonder what the fuck this woman thinks – is that a good thing for the country? Atleast we know what Modi wants – we knew what Atalji thought – but do you know a thing about this ugly wretch after puppeteering this son of a bitch sardar since 2004?

The land is ill cursed because you Sir and I have abandoned it. Left it to the worst among us to take part in politics and civil society. And on that cheery note I will end this comment.

- really? you may have abandoned it – I did not – I still fight the fight but I am too small and powerless – caught as I am in my 4 square meals a day – I have no choice but to wage my fight by not bribing the local policeman or the electricity wallah – I can’t do more but yeah I also vote and make sure that I do not for the CONcess party.

About Antonia and her minion —
It is sad to see the scorn and derision that is heaped on Sonia Gandhi primarily based on her country of birth or religion. I would like to think that both these attributes are irrelevant to how India is being mis-governed by her (and her minion). Do you think that she would be less corrupt and better at government if she was an Indian born Hindu?

Dear Sudarshan,

On your sadness at Antonia being scorned over and again on this blog, I think you are missing the forest for the wood. Atanu (or for that matter any other sensible man of self-respect) has no personal animosity against her. The scorns heaped on her was never on the grounds that she is non-Hindu or non-national. The fact that Antonia Maino to begin with and still does falsify her identity and still carries an Italian passport is a testimony to the irrevenrence she has to this great nation that made her the leader of the ruling party. The fact that a lady with no more than high school credentials has been introduced as a Cambridge laureate is a matter of shame for all of us. What makes matter further disgusting is our reverend Dr. Singh with a dozen degrees is feeding on her kitchen scarps (to borrow Atanu’s phrase) and maleful advisory on how to run the nation.

What is further shameful is Sonia’s full biography doesnt exist in any of the websites of Government of India or the Parliament or the Election Commission or the website of congress party. You may argue that she doesnt hold any official chair and is hence under no obligation to reveal her biographay ! That’s what the courts of India owned by the ruling party.. have always refused to entertain

With a private airfield at Puttaparthi that is rarely used,and a private railway station, various luxury homes in different cities, Baba traveling in private plane to summer resorts, extravagant Baba birthday celebrations, it looks like SSB Trust “squander(s) majority of the donor contributions in consumption activites or wages and spend a pittance on service ..”

Check this out:
http://www.saibaba-x.org.uk/13/Wasteful_extravagence_promotes_Sai.html

How arrogant of you Atanu to assume that everyone who found solace Baba’s message and/or miracles was a dumb ignorant gullible fool. And yet, among his devotees, even the greats find place including Sachin .

If you have read any of his books or heard his lectures, you would know that Satya Sai Baba never claimed to be only God or the only son of God etc. He claimed that all are God (essentially as you pointed out Advaita). His centers all over the world mostly have bhajan classes and sometimes bal vikas(kids programs). His bhajans are not on him, but on Krishna, Rama etc. He doesn’t convert people, but asks them to find divinity in themselves. His message was love all and serve all, which he did.

As for the allegations, the ones that went court were all dismissed.

When you allege someone is a fraud or a cheat, it helps to have actual evidence. Rumor and innuendos only go so far.

Let us be clear of some things. People did not give money to him for his personal use. They donated to a cause, to charity. So no sacrifice on the part of the Baba or the Satya Sai Trust to do charities.

The second point about wife and kids is not relevent to the discussion.

I know nothing about economics so I am a bit confused about the words “information asymmetry” and “welfare improving”. In ideal case, should it be the case that every transaction be welfare improving ?

Also, is information asymmetry a bad thing ? An industry such as travel consultancy or real estate agents depend on this information asymmetry for their bread and butter.

The travel agent in my village charges Rs 50 extra for the tickets he books for villagers on IRCTC. He can make so much money because the poor villagers dont know how to use internet.

Sathya Sai Baba materializes ash from thin air and people believe that he is a person with superpower and hence donate him money. He can make that money purely because such devotees are retards.

Also, it is not for you and me to conclude that people donate money to him because of his miracles. How can we conclude that holy ash is the widget he is selling ? It might be the part of his showmanship [ this is funny and unrelated to ssb => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekJU5k7ZW6A and people might be flocking to puttaparthy for reasons completely unrelated to his magic tricks. Those reasons might be same as why people flock to a temple or to Mecca or to Sri Sri’s art of living.

>>It is sad to see the scorn and derision that is heaped on Sonia Gandhi primarily based on her country of birth or religion

I respectfully submit that we should not stifle any debate on the religious prejudice of Sonia Gandhi in the name of secularism or liberalism or whatever ism is that we think takes precedence over free expression. After all, she is the most powerful person in India at this moment, and any criticism of her on any aspect — let alone religious bigotry — is frowned upon in the mainstream media. We need to be very worried about this bizarre phenomenon; the phenomenon of the country’s de facto ruler going virtually unscrutinized. And when seemingly educated people like you try to extend this censorship to the blogosphere, we need to be concerned even more deeply. Whenever SoniaG’s communalism is mentioned, some people try to pounce on the critic and try to shut him up by accusing *him* of being prejudiced! This is a clever ploy, but is not in the interest of healthy debate. I can understand catholic commies resorting to such tricks, but not people like you.

Note that there used to be at least some semblance of criticism of her religious politics before the advent of her government. For example:

http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/jul/16cong.htm

But after she ascended to the throne, this criticism became extinct. When a topic is rendered taboo for discussion, then it is a sign that we need to spare it even greater attention than it would otherwise attract. Note, as another example, that nobody wants to mention to the evangelical background of criminals like Binayak Sen.

I’d stop here since this is not the topic of this blog, but my request is: let us not bring censorship to the blogs please.

Atanu, I apologize if this is out of topic. Feel free to edit.

After all, just like you claim that people like SSB make Hinduism look bad, similarly, these other people make capitalism look bad with their unethical behavior, as they use information asymmetry to increase their bank balances at the cost of other people’s money. But there seems to be a dearth of such critical posts on this blog, and when you’ve addressed this issue, you tend to either exclusively blame the government (as if crony capitalists are blameless and were forced to indulge in unethical behavior) or take a simplistic and terse “shit happens/this is human nature” attitude to it. I have to wonder – why not apply the same yardstick of “human nature” to devotees of Ravi Shankar and SSB? Why do these people get your goat more than people like Jeffrey Skilling? Envy, perhaps?

Why Premanand didn’t file a case for fraud instead of the Gold Act violation nonsense, I don’t understand.

I am sorry that I have not been able to clarify the point I was trying to make.

Let me try and explain the connection between SSB and free markets.

My claim is that SSB is no different from a second hand car dealer who will sell you a car without disclosing that the previous owner has been bringing it to the same dealers garage every week because of engine problems. (I am using the same example that Atanu provided.)

Now if we believe that markets are efficient the said car dealer should soon go out of business. In reality this rarely happens.

I am not denying thag SSB is a fraud and a charlatan. I believe that there is no difference between organized religion and organized crime.

What I am trying to point out is that the success of SSB is further evidence that efficient markets are a myth.

About RSS and BJP –
I spent 10 years of my life going to a RSS shakha everyday. And there was nothing more disappointing than the BJP led NDA government that came into power and proved to be even more corrupt and inept at government than the congress government that preceded it.

About Antonia and her minion —
It is sad to see the scorn and derision that is heaped on Sonia Gandhi primarily based on her country of birth or religion. I would like to think that both these attributes are irrelevant to how India is being mis-governed by her (and her minion). Do you think that she would be less corrupt and better at government if she was an Indian born Hindu?

The land is ill cursed because you Sir and I have abandoned it. Left it to the worst among us to take part in politics and civil society. And on that cheery note I will end this comment.

Thank you for the Econ 101 lecture I am pretty sure I needed one.

However there are still some questions unanswered
1. Outside of econ 101 are there any “efficient” markets?
2. Without information asymmetry would there be a market?
3. How many transactions are “welfare improving”?

I was not trying to defend the recently departed god man with my snarky comment. Satya Sai Baba was an outlier among the millions of fake god men who try to fleece people. That he did do social work is immaterial. And yes you are providing value by condemning people like him and Mother Teresa.

Given that this blog often spews out the usual markets are the solution to everything slogan, I wanted to have the opportunity to point out the following.

1. Efficient markets are a myth.
2. There will always be need for a government which provides strong regulations for almost every transaction in the market.
3. Since some companies/people will end up with extra ordinarily large wealth because of information asymmetry it is not entirely unreasonable to ensure that they are heavily taxed to ensure equal opportunities for other members of the society.
4. The question is not so much if we should have a large government or a small government, but the most efficient and transparent government that we could have.

Of course since this is your blog I respect your right to completely ignore this comment.

best
Sudarshan

If you really go this way, the whole ad industry will have to be closed down. I think you are getting carried away by your distaste for godmen, which I share. If sai baba can be shown to have caused deaths because he told people not to take medical treatment but rely on his miracles, then you might have a case. But he has actually established good hospitals.

You can accuse him of promoting superstition but that is hardly grounds for taking him to court.

If I remember correctly Sathya Sai baba was pulled in court. The litigant claimed that Sai Baba since he materializes gold out of thin air must be considered as a manufacturer of Gold and hence be subject to the concerning government regulations.

The court dismissed the case.