Comments on: ATM-like Receipts from Voting Machines is a Very Cunning Plan http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/ Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:41:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: rishi http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149995 rishi Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:21:12 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149995 I too, have little faith in politicians. Most of them are criminals and corrupt. However, we should not throw away a simple, robust EVM system in search of a more difficult, more complex, breakable solution. I too, have little faith in politicians. Most of them are criminals and corrupt.

However, we should not throw away a simple, robust EVM system in search of a more difficult, more complex, breakable solution.

]]> By: HeadInTheClouds http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149987 HeadInTheClouds Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:46:04 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149987 Is Anonymous Coward that far off base? Check out <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia on corruption and criminalization of politics in India</a>. Certainly the educated citizen, including Atanu Dey, has <a href="http://www.legalserviceindia.com/article/l290-Criminalization-of-Politics.html" rel="nofollow">no faith</a> in what passes for the Indian democratic process. Is Anonymous Coward that far off base? Check out Wikipedia on corruption and criminalization of politics in India. Certainly the educated citizen, including Atanu Dey, has no faith in what passes for the Indian democratic process.

]]> By: rishi http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149986 rishi Sat, 13 Feb 2010 06:14:10 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149986 Come on now. You are making long winded and half-baked arguments here. They can be easily demolished. We have a multi party system. There are at least 10 candidates for each seat. Any one of whom can raise the alarm. Also, even if the candidates do not raise the alarm, any one of the voters can raise the alarm. Also, if the voters do not raise the alarm. The counters later on can raise the alarm and have the election redone. Come on now. You are making long winded and half-baked arguments here.

They can be easily demolished. We have a multi party system. There are at least 10 candidates for each seat. Any one of whom can raise the alarm.

Also, even if the candidates do not raise the alarm, any one of the voters can raise the alarm.

Also, if the voters do not raise the alarm. The counters later on can raise the alarm and have the election redone.

]]> By: Anonymous Coward http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149968 Anonymous Coward Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:19:11 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149968 What will prevent collusion of the form: "You rig elections in constituency A and I will take B, and we will look the other way as far as voting machines are concerned, in both cases"? Or, "if you point out the askew seal on the machines, we will reveal evidence of who killed that union leader last year"? With a substantial fraction of candidates having criminal records and consciences as tender as sunburnt necks, no one can throw too many stones at any one else. What will prevent collusion of the form: “You rig elections in constituency A and I will take B, and we will look the other way as far as voting machines are concerned, in both cases”? Or, “if you point out the askew seal on the machines, we will reveal evidence of who killed that union leader last year”? With a substantial fraction of candidates having criminal records and consciences as tender as sunburnt necks, no one can throw too many stones at any one else.

]]> By: rishi http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149949 rishi Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:36:40 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149949 "I want a formal proof that the system will work when even 49% of the staff involved are compromised" I am sure that before the election the EVM's are shown to the representatives of each of the contestants. They can check the seals and integrity of the EVM. This is a system that does not involve the integrity of election staff at all, but competing interests which keep themselves in check. “I want a formal proof that the system will work when even 49% of the staff involved are compromised”

I am sure that before the election the EVM’s are shown to the representatives of each of the contestants. They can check the seals and integrity of the EVM.

This is a system that does not involve the integrity of election staff at all, but competing interests which keep themselves in check.

]]> By: rishi http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149948 rishi Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:33:30 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149948 1. The seal being broken can be seen by any voter. If any one raises an alarm, the whole scheme will unravel. 2. The soldering - resoldering requires expertise, which cannot be done by just anyone. 3. After the soldering - resoldering operation, there is a good chance that the EVM might just stop functioning. 4. Even after the election, a cursory inspection of the EVM can show foul play, and a re-election of that area can be called. 1. The seal being broken can be seen by any voter. If any one raises an alarm, the whole scheme will unravel.

2. The soldering – resoldering requires expertise, which cannot be done by just anyone.

3. After the soldering – resoldering operation, there is a good chance that the EVM might just stop functioning.

4. Even after the election, a cursory inspection of the EVM can show foul play, and a re-election of that area can be called.

]]> By: Anonymous Coward http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149941 Anonymous Coward Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:56:16 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149941 "Soldering the old chip out and soldering the new chip in ... would break the seal and immediately be detected" --- You don't get it, do you? Who will do the detection, and how incorruptible are the detectors? When paper ballot elections are rigged throughout India, there are often many smoking guns. But who brings the perpetrators to book? Is there anyone involved in the election process who I trust will inspect the EVM seals and honestly report if any were broken? Why are medicines and food items routinely adulterated despite many seals? Honestly, I don't know, and I'd rather not depend on incorruptible people to implement such a critical and delicate matter as democracy. We need secret-sharing protocols and error-detection/correction codes. I want a formal proof that the system will work when even 49% of the staff involved are compromised, say. “Soldering the old chip out and soldering the new chip in … would break the seal and immediately be detected” — You don’t get it, do you? Who will do the detection, and how incorruptible are the detectors? When paper ballot elections are rigged throughout India, there are often many smoking guns. But who brings the perpetrators to book? Is there anyone involved in the election process who I trust will inspect the EVM seals and honestly report if any were broken? Why are medicines and food items routinely adulterated despite many seals? Honestly, I don’t know, and I’d rather not depend on incorruptible people to implement such a critical and delicate matter as democracy. We need secret-sharing protocols and error-detection/correction codes. I want a formal proof that the system will work when even 49% of the staff involved are compromised, say.

]]> By: rishi http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149903 rishi Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:32:53 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149903 "The voter checks the receipt ( which is usually colour coded) folds and gives it to polling officer and the officer puts it in the box assigned." Wait a minute here. This means that the polling officer, and everybody other official in the booth gets to see who the person voted for. What happened to a secret ballot? Are we to abandon that? Other than the point mentioned above, I have serious misgivings over the use of printed receipts. It will make a simple system much more complex. Currently we have a hardware based system. The code is burnt into the chip and cannot be changed without removing the whole chip and replacing it with another. This involves opening the EVM and then soldering the old chip out and soldering the new chip in. It would break the seal and immediately be detected. To make a printable system, it would require a software based system, with the code stored in the form of bits on a floppy. This can be tampered with much more easily than the current system. Viruses can strike a software system and make it store wrong results. The printer can give out, run out of paper etc. It will require a bigger battery backup, of the size of a few lead acid batteries, etc. All in all it is a more complex system. It is always better to use the simple system. “The voter checks the receipt ( which is usually colour coded) folds and gives it to polling officer and the officer puts it in the box assigned.”

Wait a minute here. This means that the polling officer, and everybody other official in the booth gets to see who the person voted for. What happened to a secret ballot? Are we to abandon that?

Other than the point mentioned above, I have serious misgivings over the use of printed receipts. It will make a simple system much more complex.

Currently we have a hardware based system. The code is burnt into the chip and cannot be changed without removing the whole chip and replacing it with another. This involves opening the EVM and then soldering the old chip out and soldering the new chip in. It would break the seal and immediately be detected.

To make a printable system, it would require a software based system, with the code stored in the form of bits on a floppy. This can be tampered with much more easily than the current system. Viruses can strike a software system and make it store wrong results. The printer can give out, run out of paper etc. It will require a bigger battery backup, of the size of a few lead acid batteries, etc. All in all it is a more complex system. It is always better to use the simple system.

]]> By: Anonymous Coward http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149898 Anonymous Coward Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:39:32 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149898 So what if open source software is used? As you know Aarey milk comes in sealed packets, but if you look closely you will find hypodermic needle marks. The public will be shown open source software. Just before the voting machines are installed on site, the software will be replaced. Look, for a transaction to remain honest in India, every muon and gluon involved needs its own error-correcting code and stamped receipt in triplicate. There needs to be a theorem that, at the point corruption is sufficiently socialized, there is no escape from society's final demise. But it takes time. Apparently the Titanic took over two hours to sink after the iceberg gashed its hull. So what if open source software is used? As you know Aarey milk comes in sealed packets, but if you look closely you will find hypodermic needle marks. The public will be shown open source software. Just before the voting machines are installed on site, the software will be replaced. Look, for a transaction to remain honest in India, every muon and gluon involved needs its own error-correcting code and stamped receipt in triplicate. There needs to be a theorem that, at the point corruption is sufficiently socialized, there is no escape from society’s final demise. But it takes time. Apparently the Titanic took over two hours to sink after the iceberg gashed its hull.

]]> By: Mahesh http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149867 Mahesh Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:10:12 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149867 (Contnd..) The receipt cannot be taken out of the booth. The printer would be in front of polling officer. The voter checks the receipt ( which is usually colour coded) folds and gives it to polling officer and the officer puts it in the box assigned. It would be the responsibility of the polling officer to ensure that the number of votes in EVM and Number of receipts match. regards (Contnd..) The receipt cannot be taken out of the booth.

The printer would be in front of polling officer.

The voter checks the receipt ( which is usually colour coded) folds and gives it to polling officer and the officer puts it in the box assigned.

It would be the responsibility of the polling officer to ensure that the number of votes in EVM and Number of receipts match.

regards

]]> By: Mahesh http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149866 Mahesh Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:03:44 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149866 Atanu, I think you got it wrong. The receipt a voter gets after his EVM voting will have to be deposited in a box kept for that. The idea is to recount using paper votes (the receipts) if there is a justified complaint by any candidate ( most often the loser). The receipt cannot be taken out of the Booth regards Atanu,

I think you got it wrong.

The receipt a voter gets after his EVM voting will have to be deposited in a box kept for that.

The idea is to recount using paper votes (the receipts) if there is a justified complaint by any candidate ( most often the loser).

The receipt cannot be taken out of the Booth

regards

]]> By: Adhiraja http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149859 Adhiraja Sun, 07 Feb 2010 23:57:56 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149859 No systemic demerits whatsoever if the "receipt" is displayed for a short while to the voter and then automatically deposited into the ballot box, You get instant feedback of authenticity of the choice for the voter, and an audit trail. FWIW, there appears to be consensus on the need for a paper trail among the tech community. EFF leadership and noted Electronic Voting Machine experts like Ed Felten from Princeton concur: http://www.naturalnews.com/020427_voting_machines_electronic_voting_voting_fraud.html Diebold opposes this consistently - proof enough that it is sorely needed. No systemic demerits whatsoever if the “receipt” is displayed for a short while to the voter and then automatically deposited into the ballot box, You get instant feedback of authenticity of the choice for the voter, and an audit trail. FWIW, there appears to be consensus on the need for a paper trail among the tech community. EFF leadership and noted Electronic Voting Machine experts like Ed Felten from Princeton concur: http://www.naturalnews.com/020427_voting_machines_electronic_voting_voting_fraud.html

Diebold opposes this consistently – proof enough that it is sorely needed.

]]> By: Akshar http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149850 Akshar Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:23:31 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149850 Idea certainly has more demerits than merits. I dont understand why the architecture of these machines is not made Open Source. Idea certainly has more demerits than merits. I dont understand why the architecture of these machines is not made Open Source.

]]> By: Adhiraja http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149842 Adhiraja Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:40:47 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149842 I agree with your open source point, but that is only half the correctness battle. "[voting] machines must have a voter-verifiable paper audit trails (sometimes called a voter-verified paper ballot). This is a paper ballot printed out by the voting machine, which the voter is allowed to look at and verify. He doesn’t take it home with him. Either he looks at it on the machine behind a glass screen, or he takes the paper and puts it into a ballot box. The point of this is twofold: it allows the voter to confirm that his vote was recorded in the manner he intended, and it provides the mechanism for a recount if there are problems with the machine." http://www.opendemocracy.net/media-voting/article_2213.jsp I am sorry but, I agree with Subramaniam Swamy. Even a wrong clock tells the correct time twice a day! I agree with your open source point, but that is only half the correctness battle.

“[voting] machines must have a voter-verifiable paper audit trails (sometimes called a voter-verified paper ballot). This is a paper ballot printed out by the voting machine, which the voter is allowed to look at and verify. He doesn’t take it home with him. Either he looks at it on the machine behind a glass screen, or he takes the paper and puts it into a ballot box. The point of this is twofold: it allows the voter to confirm that his vote was recorded in the manner he intended, and it provides the mechanism for a recount if there are problems with the machine.”

http://www.opendemocracy.net/media-voting/article_2213.jsp

I am sorry but, I agree with Subramaniam Swamy. Even a wrong clock tells the correct time twice a day!

]]> By: amar http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149839 amar Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:13:33 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149839 <i>Adding little ATM-like receipts ups the farce even more.</i> One could imagine an ideal case, when the voter collects Rs. 300 (Rs. 100 each from each of the three leading parties as pre-payment), votes for the fourth party (like lok-satta-party of Jaya Prakash Narayan) and uses the receipt as a toilet paper. But, if the voters are smart enough, they would not be living in a farce where they have to play prisoner's paradox kind of games with their politicians! Adding little ATM-like receipts ups the farce even more.

One could imagine an ideal case, when the voter collects Rs. 300 (Rs. 100 each from each of the three leading parties as pre-payment), votes for the fourth party (like lok-satta-party of Jaya Prakash Narayan) and uses the receipt as a toilet paper.

But, if the voters are smart enough, they would not be living in a farce where they have to play prisoner’s paradox kind of games with their politicians!

]]> By: Clipped.in - Explore Indian blogs http://www.deeshaa.org/2010/02/07/atm-like-receipts-from-voting-machines-is-a-very-cunning-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-149838 Clipped.in - Explore Indian blogs Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:09:52 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/?p=3520#comment-149838 Yes, the voting software should be made opensource. And even the hardware design of the machine. Yes, the voting software should be made opensource. And even the hardware design of the machine.

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