Why would you assume that I’m placing democracy on a pedestal and am immune to any criticism of it? I could quote Kant and Churchill on it, whose views on democracy are along the same lines as the person you quoted (BTW, there’s some confusion whether that quote can be attributed to him or not). The fact that I mentioned democracy needs to be improved means that I see there are faults in the way it is currently functioning. I’m not particularly attached to democracy, but it is the best we have for now and I don’t see a different (improved) system (which I won’t be opposed to just because I love democracy) replacing it anytime soon – so I think it’s more productive to work with and improve what we have. YMMV.

As for pigeon-holing and shoehorning, that was not my intention. How about “interests of India at heart” and “strong belief in implementing free markets”? Surely you are smart enough to see beyond labels and get at what my question was, instead of launching a Galt-like speech on identities.

As for me, I like to explore life and world, and just like you, I also do not like the baggage of ideologies (including “objectivism”). I do find it interesting that you criticize everything and anything under the sun, yet have not written a single post criticizing corporations and big businesses – how they are accumulating more and more power and have a role in corrupting the democratic process. As history has shown us, more power in the hands of a few is not a good idea. Maybe you should also turn your critical eye to the economic theories (which are not scientific – they are just theories and likely to have faults) on which you stand and view the world.

Proponents of democracy first make an assumption that democracy is the best form (just like other fundamentalists do with their own idealogies) and argue from that position. Also, they don’t understand criticism of one thing doesn’t imply supporting something else, unless one explicitly states so.

I think this is what they think: Everyone’s views must be respected (coz everyone has a view and everyone must be respected!) and the best way to do this is to aggregate everyone’s ‘respectable’ views and push that thing down everyone’s throat.

Domain expertise and specialization are important. Next time you get sick, try a democratic approach, use polls (I will help you setup an online one in a few minutes) to vote on your sickness and treatment. If you visit a doctor, then you are not being democratic, being a bigoted fundamentalist who doesn’t respect people (your well-wishers!!) and their views.

The sooner we get rid of respect others views, the better. If we had to respect views, we’d still be teaching sun revolves round the earth, coz when Galileo proposed his theory, everyone can *see* that that Sun is indeed revolving round the earth and had it been put to vote, Galileo’s theory would have been defeated. In the most optimistic case, we’d be teaching two theories, one of sun revolving around the earth and vice versa. This doesn’t accomplish anything.

The sooner people got rid of their silly egos and that their views *ought* to be respected, the better.

Atanu, have you been reading “Mein Kampf” lately? Such contempt for democracy based on one sop given to farmers? Aren’t you conveniently overlooking the other positive aspects of democracy?

No, I have not read MK. Should I?

My post was not a thesis on democracy. Democracy is an idea. Under what circumstances is it effective and what are its strengths and weaknesses in the actual implementation is a legitimate empirical question. Putting an idea above all scrutiny and examination works for some who are worshipful of it. But I find all ideas worth a critical look.

Quoting you again:

I’m also not clear on one thing. Are you an Indian nationalist, or a Free Market proponent/fundamentalist? And what happens when there is a conflict between the two, as there is many times (e.g. Union Carbide and Bhopal)? Where does your loyalty lie in such cases, . . .

You may find it useful to define categories and then shoehorn me into them. Excuse me if I refuse to comply, not the least reason for which is that our definitions of your categories must be different. These categories are not like the SI meter — they are not unambiguously and clearly defined.

Market is an idea, just like democracy. Whether markets work is contingent on the circumstances. The idea has been studied sufficiently (both theoretically and empirically) for us to know how it works and under which circumstances it fails.

Intellectual laziness or incomplete understanding of the idea and its limitations allow people to claim for themselves, or accuse others, of being “market fundamentalist.” It is that old “you are either with us or against us” mentality.

It is quite possible for a person to appreciate the idea of markets and also appreciate its limitations. So also, democracy is a fine idea and until its limitations are understood, it is possible to insist on democracy where it is inappropriate.

I am not sure I know what you mean by “nationalist” and so cannot answer it by a simple yes or no. But let me give you a short answer. I am for myself first and foremost. I am not for any race, linguistic group, state, nation, ideology or creed. I don’t owe any allegiance to any body or any institution. So I am free to criticize whoever and whatever as I see fit, and I do use that freedom.

If I were an “Indian nationalist” (as defined by some people, say), then I would lose the freedom to be critical of Indian nationalism. So also, if I were a “market fundamentalist,” I would be unable to be critical of markets. You get the idea.

I cannot blame you for your attempt at pigeonholing me. Most people can be put in neat little categories because they latch on to an ideology and even if they were capable of critical reasoning, are prevented from doing so because they fear losing that identity. Their identity is defined by that a category and they become automatons forever controlled by it.

Now I suppose it is only fair to ask you which categories define you.

If we take only India as an example of Democracy, things have not worked the way they should have. We survived not because of Democracy but inspite of that.

But Democracies have survived, flourished and have been succesful in a whole lot of states where the average intellect is high.

India is a sad statement on Democracy. One Monarchy ruling us for more than 85% of the period post independence is not really Democracy. (Ya, we know Amit, “they” have been “elected” again and again and blah..blah..). Democracy has worked in US, UK, France etc where two poles have shared power and brought progress. In case of India it has been unipolar and will continue to be unipolar, with LEFT/Socialist appeasers setting Nation’s agenda and emptying it’s coffers while in power.

Yet i just feel Democracy will finally save us. An entire generation of people who were bred on the “Hindu Rate of Growth” by the criminal Nehru has long gone and a new much confident generation is coming of age. I think we need to give Democracy a chance.

It would be nice if you could write about how the govt ensures future generations are poor. A significant portion of the budget just goes in paying interest on loans taken (for what?! ). The vile and decadent politicians take huge loans just so that they can steal.

Interest Payments and Prepayment Premium – 1,90,807 crores – almost 2 lakh crores, about 25% of budget spending.

http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2008-09/bag/bag3.htm

http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2008-09/bag/bag1.htm

The cycle that you have described may be possible because the tax-paying community in India, which funds this country, is miniscule, and hence have no say in how their funds are disbursed.

The fact remains that people of India are grouped into jatis, and in many cases, entire jatis are economically and educationally backward. They have no qualms in voting into power polticians promising them freebies. As pointed out above, they lack knowledge about the source and nature of their apparent “gains”.

This leaves our netas in a very powerful position indeed; an assured source of funds AND an assured source of power.
Legalised looting is the obvious result.

Will we need tweaks or big shifts to eliminate these distortions and asymmetries?
Can proportionate representation help? Or maybe a Presidential system of government?
Or do we need budgetary controls that prevent such large scale stupidity (imbecility — is that even a word?) from occurring again.

Would be interesting to know those and start assembling a “new democracy”!

And quoting two sentences (without context) from someone who agrees with you at the start of your post doesn’t mean your case is strengthened – there are many “famous” writers and one can find plenty of quotes for-or-against any issue – though the readers who are none-the-wiser are probably impressed. (“OMG, Alexander Tytler said so about democracy? Wow, that must be true then.”) For example, I could quote someone who said many centuries ago “Pothi padh padh jag mua, pandit bhaya na koi…” – and it would be true for this post.

Very poorly written post – almost in a knee-jerk fashion. Remember “We the people..”? The solution is to strengthen democratic institutions, hold the elected politicians accountable and elect honest people, IMHO.

I’m also not clear on one thing. Are you an Indian nationalist, or a Free Market proponent/fundamentalist? And what happens when there is a conflict between the two, as there is many times (e.g. Union Carbide and Bhopal)? Where does your loyalty lie in such cases, e.g. introduction of BT cotton at the behest of MNCs by the politicians more than a decade ago (political parties on both sides have done that when in power), changing the traditional way farmers have been growing crops, and that decision playing some role in Indian farmers committing suicide? I think corporations have only one mandate (as you’ve pointed out in an earlier post) – to make profits for their shareholders. They don’t care about countries or nationalism or injustices. Or maybe you’re suggesting that once all Indians buy some shares and stocks and have a portfolio, everything will be hunky dory.