i personally know one MBBS student of KMC manipal who lost one academic year as he announced his acceptance of Islam to his parents
and one engineer at honeywell who has become a well practising muslim

This is so interesting … I’ve been reading these comments for an hour now. The Original by Atanu did impress me, because his basic line of argument was not whether 99% Muslims or 77% Hindus are xenophobic, fundamentalist et cetera. what i gather is, besides many other things, what he was trying to say is that there is nothing like Indian Islam. Just as a conventional saying goes ‘no one can become a Hindu…’ , we can not have Indian Islam, Saudi Arabian Islam, Mexican Islam. We can have Muslims – Danish, French, and maybe Antartican.

I also liked someone who said that ‘why must one read in order to understand Islam.. and why not the followers be a model of whats contained within the precepts of what they follow… indeed, a normal individual can’t do all that academic reading. One sees more visible signs… fatwas, terror attacks, suicide bombers, thrashing writers.. and all these things create an opinion.

when i used to hear all these sardarji jokes during my school days, and didn’t have any surd friend, I almost believed that each and every sardar is a stupid person. This changed only when I interacted with and made good friends with many of them.. and also when I gained more awareness about the ilks of Manmohan Singh and countless other.

There may be say x% of Muslims who perpetrate violence or believe in the ideology of extremism. That x% could differ country to country… and family to family. Obviously there would be x% minus others at the same time, who are not visible – - because they don’t like shouting on the streets, or simply because they are too busy reading and responding to blogs like us!

Islam is simple – it asks you to surrender to one supreme god, regards Muhammad as his apostle, pray, fast, do charity to the needy, and if possible go for Haj. These are the basic most things from Allah. The rest are from humans. How relevant the human-engineered variations are today is anyone’s guess because those who made those laws/rules are extinct now, and so is the societies that they lived in. The times have changed and a huge number of Muslims have recreated their own ‘Middle Path’ amidst the chaotic modern life – and they are very much Muslim.

The fact remains that India has one of the exemplary co-existence of diversity, not just because of Muslims and Hindus, but plethora of other religions, sects, tribes, etc. Nitin’s remarks may not have been meant to be taken so literally I guess (I’m taking the liberty of making a comment on something I’ve not gone through, but thats what I could intelligently guess… please correct me if I’m wrong), but Atanu’s taking on it was good in a way that it triggered and incited such tremendous reactions and interest.

Lets be honest. No one is a Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Parsi (this is what I believe). What if I were born among Aghoras? Wouldn’t I be relishing human flesh? Lets not fool ourselves by branding each other extremist, ignorant, supercillious… thats how it has been happening until now, and see where have we reached.

I like Hinduism (I am a Muslim). Almost all of my friends are Hindus. I have lived in India since my birth, have never imagined what would I be if not an Indian. I know many Muslims who are like me.

But I know many others who are not like me. They live among themselves (read Muslims), hardly have any friends outside their community, no interaction with the diversity that India offers to them. There is a huge number of such people in India.

For them, it is them and others. The fact is well documented that Muslims are among the poorest of the poor in India. Typically barbers, tailors, rickshaw pullers, mechanics grace the Who’s Who of the community. Their sense of family planning is nil. They get married.. and there you go.. the rahmat from Allah in annual installments starts pouring in.

Many of them can only afford food and basic living. Some can’t do even that. If at all they go to school, they can only go to free madrasas, which are based on religious outlay. even well to do muslims are relatively well to do. a large section of muslim families can only afford to send their kids to madrasas.

That is where it starts.. the ‘us’ and ‘them’ phenomenon. Yet, in India it has not been a malignant phenomenon, barring a few freak cases where madrasas were found to be harboring some unsolicited outlaws (read extremists)… madrasas simply teach quran (only learning by heart usually).. the understanding and interpretation of quran happens only after schooling. Basic tenets of islam are taught.

what madrasa education generally lacks is vision. it just imparts education to muslims and not to Indians. only a few madrasa have begun to realize that. The point to ponder is that a part of india, a huge human pool, is just lying dormant. In their lifetime, what they do is learn quran, religious stuff and then become caretaker of a mosque and live their lives. and there are thousands and thousands of such people, the Indians, who could otherwise would have participated in the growth of the country.

They make this choice because they have no other choice. Muslims who can afford send their kids to best schools. They let them do whatever. They live life their way. Their is no fatwa, no hue and cry. But finances don’t allow this luxury to a majority of muslims.

Of course there maybe a few Kafeels, but there are destructive minds everywhere. Some would chose to call him martyr. i would term them crazy.

Hope all i said made sense. it is my first comment to any blog. after reading so many views, i was really charged up. please ignore any factual, actual, or imagined errors ;o)

cheers!

Why does islam threaten apostates with death, quite interesting example for Egalitarian.

How come women cant marry 4 times and men can?
Why do they have to cover their faces ?
Where is a women mullah ?

This is the same faith that created a dichotomy and egalitarian ideas like kuffrs , dar ul harb, jaziya.

What kind of stupid argument is “God have to choose a language”
God by your arguement instantly made kuffrs out of chinese.
Is God that stupid?
or more likely the followers of a warlord.
The same warlord who opportunistically could have prophecy.
To any literate person its clear what Mohammad was doing, copying elements from Judaism, Christianity as well as preislamic arabia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIsvsm9xgrg

Shadows, which groups do you hang out with.. A large percentage of muslim population are in non english speaking countries. Do you hang out at community blogs maintained by indonesians,malasians or arabs?? Do u have access to their blogs?
How are you so sure about the extremist views of muslims? Is there someting called a “muslim” fundi blog where u get your information? Or you read your information largely from a European/American media source? Lots of views that you have on muslims are defined by the groups you hang out with..So why dont uyou sek and find out muslim blogs and go through their views

1. Look at the other muslim’s comments here on this thread.. more importantly, look at their logic and way of thinking, what they imply….

now now now.. dont point out “Hindu fundamentalists” commenting here.. Hindu fundamentalism was born because of centuries of islamic oppression of India and as late as 20th century, it never had any reason to exist otherwise..

2. Read the comments to your own blog.

3. You *may* be liberal , but what about the other 99% who want islamic domination all over the world.

4. Do passages with extreme views on womens rights, jehad and violence in Koran exist or not ? Or every other newspaper , magazine or blog in the world is lying about those offending stuff in the koran? If the offending poetic lines do exist, why is it not being reformed? All other faiths have evolved with the times.. but not Islam. It has a long long way to go.

5. I have lot of points, but OK – granted that you have proved your point with those links you posted. But how many muslims think like you do ? Talk about numbers.. If you say many do, then the reality suggests something very different.

You are absolutely right… THEIR women, not infidel women..

>> Come on!! God’s got to choose one language!!

LOL..

=============

Atanu,

islam does not have any opinions about you and me, its muslims who do !!

Apart from the ideology, as people, Hindus are hated, as are the Jews, Christians and Buddhists…

http://slate.com/id/2171371/

Why one must learn Islam to actually undestand that what is being perpetrated by the followers of the religion is not what has been dictated by the religion? Why I should read, learn and understand Quran to actually acknowledge that your line of thought is not dangerous? Why your action can not prove that?
Does any other religion demands such conformity or learning from the people to actually acknowledge it as not a destructive one?

2.There is NO religion other than Islam which gives women the most rights.Get your facts right.I can prove it.

We have seen Taliban. We are seeing Deobandis, Iran and what not ( in this case,Turkey is excluded). If you still think that they represent the zenith of women’s rights, then I can see the depth of your “learning”.

3.Islam teaches you to learn and learn until your death.It is said in the Quran.Islam is intellectual-its practical and knowledgable.Islam dislikes people who do not take the effort to be an intellectual or is negative.Try to be more optimistic and open minded,guys.

Open minded, of course. I can still remember the Bamiyan Budhdhas and what happened to them by the learned intellectual followers who epitomized open mindedness. We know about the camel races in the middle east which shows compassion of the great followers, we know how open minded Saudi Arabia is.

4.Islam is all about being open minded.There are reasons for the protectiveness that is imposed on women,but if you have read the Quran, you probably woul have heard that men will be sinned if they didnt take care(includes knowledge,emotional and financial) and respect their women properly.

Now the circular argument. Quran provides ultimate freedom to women. And the “protectiveness”( height of euphemism here, even the word suppresion falls short) towards women is justified because the Quran says so.

5.It is the humans on this earth and media culprits who make everything look like a piece of crap.

Yes, media is culprit , but your actions are not. Not when you assemble rage boys at the slightest ( often non-existent) of pretexts,not when your open minded followers bomb the shit out of innocent train passengers- making numerous orphans, not when the open minded followers butcher thousands of babies and children in Sudan, who are so terrified that they walk whole nights alone to escape from your intellectual followers, it is only media who are the only responsible!

5.So instead of putting down a subject or finding the tiniest reason to give a bad name to a religion,I suggest you read and travel first before talking.

Why everyone should read and learn this religion to understand that it is not a menace? Does any other language asks you to read its books first just to acknowledge that it is not a threat to humanity? It is the action of the followers that proves, and in this case almost all the actions we are afraid of have been taken on the behest of religion.

There is NO religion other than Islam which gives women the most rights.Get your facts right.I can prove it.

Islam teaches you to learn and learn until your death.It is said in the Quran.Islam is intellectual-its practical and knowledgable.Islam dislikes people who do not take the effort to be an intellectual or is negative.Try to be more optimistic and open minded,guys.

Islam is all about being open minded.There are reasons for the protectiveness that is imposed on women,but if you have read the Quran, you probably woul have heard that men will be sinned if they didnt take care(includes knowledge,emotional and financial) and respect their women properly.

It is the humans on this earth and media culprits who make everything look like a piece of crap.

So instead of putting down a subject or finding the tiniest reason to give a bad name to a religion,I suggest you read and travel first before talking.

May Allah bless you to give you more freedom of thinking.

I do not want to talk or write too much because firstly the above comment by Zenil is well said and two,I feel that you guys need to learn first.

Thank you very much.

1)Sunni/Shia are sects. They differ in their interpretations of Quran. And in some places they really hate each other. They re NOT castes. There is no upper/lower in them. So get your facts right!! I stand by what i say. I can go to any mosque anywhere in the world and pray regardless of which sect I follow.

2)There are more than 10 million missing baby girls in India,lots of them buried alive. Add to that dowry deaths,bride burning.So if there’s any country that treats women like shit thats India.And 80% of Indian population is Hindu. So make your own conclusions. Please show me any such figure in any Arab society.

3)Arabic and not Chinese because thats what it is.Come on!! God’s got to choose one language!! And Arabs not equal to Islam. Can you come up with something more worthwhile..

4)Islam promotes equality. Why don’t u read a bit before shooting your mouth off..Arab societies may be regressive. No different from Indian societies. No point in blaming Islam for it.

5)There are open and closed societies in the muslim world. Take Malaysia. Its a majority muslim country with temples(a very famous Hanuman temple promoted as a tourist attraction) and churches and unlike Indians they don’t crib about being secular. And they actively promote their minority tamil brothers. And there are those at the other extreme(Saudi) and those that are in between(UAE..Freedom to pray is limited, but lots of Indians make good living AND are happy with it..)…

So guys com out with something that has more meat in it!!

“So before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world. And all of us against the infidel.”–Leon Uris, _The Haj_ (1984)

There is a hierarchy of enemies. First, all muslims against the infidels. Once the infidels are eliminated, we go down to the next level, that is between different sects (assuming sects is the right word for Sunni, Shia, etc). And so on and so forth. This algorithm reminds of parsing trees, however, I don’t know which one they use preorder or postorder.

Muslims in India are still working at level 1, eliminate all muslims. In this phase, it is common to see sects multiply, coz the environment allows it. Hence we have 13 sects. This is normal and expected behaviour. Give muslims some time before jumping to conclusions that India Islam is different.

Jan pines for the golden Mughal period. Sorry, 1 billion Hindus dont.

Its biggest Joke. Nowhere in Islamic texts, they spoke about Equality TILL THE ADVENT OF FRENCH REVOLUTION.

It was always “true religion vesus False”.

Tom Friedman has touched this topic after Kafeel’s two failed terror attepmt.

http://freedemocracy.blogspot.com/2007/07/thomas-l-friedman-at-theater-near-you.html

“Two trends are at work here: humiliation and atomization. Islam’s self-identity is that it is the most perfect and complete expression of God’s monotheistic message, and the Koran is God’s last and most perfect word. To put it another way, young Muslims are raised on the view that Islam is God 3.0. Christianity is God 2.0. Judaism is God 1.0. And Hinduism and all others are God 0.0.”

“One of the factors driving Muslim males, particularly educated ones, into these acts of extreme, expressive violence is that while they were taught that they have the most perfect and complete operating system, every day they’re confronted with the reality that people living by God 2.0., God 1.0 and God 0.0 are generally living much more prosperously, powerfully and democratically than those living under Islam. This creates a real dissonance and humiliation. How could this be? Who did this to us? The Crusaders! The Jews! The West! It can never be something that they failed to learn, adapt to or build. This humiliation produces a lashing out.”

Look at Kashmir’s Islam. It will tell us about what’s the ultimate Goal of Islam.

Or look at Bangladesh. Indonesia where we are told Mosques were built with Hindu Gods at the outer wall, Gates. Those were examples of Inclusion – the first step of Islamization. However, NO MOSQUES ARE BUILT IN INDONESIA WITH HINDU ICONS AT ITS GATES THESE DAYS:)-

Neither any Muslim from Bangladesh reads Pir’s Stories which they used to do even few decades back prior to Wahabi Islam’s spread there.

What we see/call as Indigeneous Islam is a intermediate step in the whole Islamization process. Depending on so many factors- social, economic, political etc, Islamization takes few decades (in case of Arabs) to 100s of years (in case of Bangladesh)/

In anthropological sense, religion means peoples understanding of Higher and lesser God(s). Islam cannot change people from many Gods to a single God(Allah) just by converting somebody to Islam on a single day. It needs elaborate mechanism to handle the transition and its traces can be found in literary, folk culture.

There are three stages of Islamization: Inclusion. Identification. Displacement

Goal of Islam is to replace Hindu High/Lesser Gods to one Islamic God Allah.

To do that, they first include Islamic lesser Gods with Hindu God(s). Then, they identify which one is superior/inferior. And ultimately replace the Hindu high God/Lesser Gods with Islamic Allah. You can find a great analysis of this process in Richard Eaton’s “Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier”. Being a Bengali, I could understand detailed literary evidence cited by Eaton.

Broher Zenil. If there is no uppercaste/dalit mosque in Islam then why did Pakistani Muslims create their own mosque in Dubai and other cities in the Middle East? Why were they not satisfied with Arab mosques? Why do Sunnis never set foot on Shia mosques and vice-versa? And why are women not allowed entry in mosques?

Only religion that makes it obligatory for its followers to pay yearly a % of their earning to the poor.

Why do people scramble to withdraw money from their accounts in Pakistani banks just before this “obigatory donation”?

Only religion to codify laws to give equality and inheritance to women. Infact compared to the Inidan system muslim men are required to give dowry to get married. And Islam did it long before there were feminists/liberalists/western democracys..

The less is said about this the better it is.

I am not.. I find this post very funny..

If you know so much about Islam how come you missed these:

1)Islam promotes a wide egalitarian spirit. I can go to any mosque anywhere in the world and i can pray. There’s no uppercaste/dalit mosque. My economic/social status disappears as soon as I enter the mosque.
And there’s no separate “queue/darshan” for VIP’s.

2)Only religion that makes it obligatory for its followers to pay yearly a % of their earning to the poor.

3)Only religion to codify laws to give equality and inheritance to women. Infact compared to the Inidan system muslim men are required to give dowry to get married. And Islam did it long before there were feminists/liberalists/western democracys..

4)Only religion that makes it obligatory for its followers to dedicate a whole month every year of their adult life in fasting ,prayer and alms giving to show solidarity with the less fortunate.

So you are partly right..Islam is a unique religion in terms of its spirit. But some people simply dont “get” it!!
Why dont you read/investigate a bit more on Islam before foaming at the mouth. Or may be show some balance .
Islam’s the fastest growing religion in the world NOW(with no sword to support it!!!).

There are tens of thousands of muslims doctor, surgeons, lawyers, intellectuals, journalists, and professionals who are moderate and yet muslim in their own way. Unfortunately, they do not hog the media as Ms. Hirsi Ali because they are not dramatic or controversial like her.

Ms. Hirsi Ali’s sole qualification (despite her so called endearing life story to Westerners), i sto make stupid, and shallow comments reflecting complete lack of wisdom. She is an anti-muslim crasader in her own way – because thats how she makes her lucrative living.

Any “Muslim gone-bad” (like girls gone wild) is very tantalizing to any stupid crowd of Westerners.

By the way I am a Hindu.

Just FYI.

Against the ban of The Satanic Verses:
http://indianmuslims.in/the-salmanic-verses-knighthood-for-salman-rushdie/

Against the assault on Taslima Nasreen:
http://indianmuslims.in/lajja-taslima-nasreen-assaulted-in-hyderabad/

Danish Cartoon Controversy:
http://indianmuslims.in/so-the-danish-cartoonist-was-burnt-alive/

Against Imam Bukhari:
http://indianmuslims.in/look-whos-talking/
http://indianmuslims.in/syed-ahmed-bukhari-there-he-goes-again/

Varanasi Blasts in Hanuman Temple:
http://indianmuslims.in/politics-of-hit-and-hate/

Against the 50 Crore Award:
http://indianmuslims.in/up-minister-promises-rs-51-crore-for-cartoonists-head/

And these are just my posts. There are many more at the blog by other authors on these issues and more.

Thanks,
Mohib

How many Muslim majority countries are democracies in first place? The Palestinians elected the Hamas. Since when did RSS become a paramilitary force? What rights do religious minorities enjoy in Muslim majority countries ? We just need to look at the decreasing population of Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan.

By the way, if you are offended by my position, do send me a link to your writings where you protested the call for murder of writers and cartoonists by an Indian Muslim minister of the government, send me where you opposed the banning of books by the government of India, where you opposed the division of Indian society through religion-based discrimination, etc. I will entertain your objections. Otherwise stuff it you know where.

I do not know whether to call it height of ignorance or height of arrogance!

For the record, please visit my comments and comments of many other muslims on Indian Muslim blog on the issue of Taslima Nasrin and numerous other issues:

http://indianmuslims.in/freedom-of-expression-freedom-of-silence/

You mention the Turkish AKP government. Are you telling me that the AKP were involved in anything resembling Gujrat in 2002? Did AKP officials hand out names and addresses of minority homes and properties so that these could be torched? Does the AKP have a paramilitary force similar to the RSS? Has any AKP leader shown admiration for Adolf Hitler?

Beats me too.

Excellent read sir , thanks for this

1. Let’s look at this honestly. At the height of the Danish cartoon controversy, how many Muslims rioted violently? Or rather, what proportion of Muslims? Was it 20%? 30%? Does anyone have any accurate figures?

I have. It is 93%. If you have any other number, prove that ( This answer follows the logic of your question).

2. We hear so much about Muslim extremism. Name me one Muslim country that has elected the Islamic equivalent of the BJP to rule their nation.

Not one of them. The muslim countries which can elect government have elected people who are much more dogmatic than the BJP is ( remember BNP’s alliance with former rajakars in the last Bangladesh government, Iran’s presidential election ( if you call that election at all.LOL) , even in Turkey, JDP has come to power).

And about the countries where there is no election, less said about their secularism is better.

BTW, are we getting an inkling here regarding the effect of the proposed export scheme?

Let’s look at this honestly. At the height of the Danish cartoon controversy, how many Muslims rioted violently? Or rather, what proportion of Muslims? Was it 20%? 30%? Does anyone have any accurate figures?

We hear so much about Muslim extremism. Name me one Muslim country that has elected the Islamic equivalent of the BJP to rule their nation.

Others say that a Muslim who is true to his or her faith must enforce the punishment for apostasy. Really? Why?

As a Muslim, my understanding of the sharia law of apostasy is that it only applies in the context of treason. And I am not the only one who understands it in this way.

Further, as a Muslim living in a non-Muslim country (I am from Australia), certain aspects of sharia (e.g. hudood) have no jurisdiction over my life. In fact, sharia itself forbids me from imposing hudood and other forms of criminal laws and punishments commonly associated with sharia.

So if a Muslim wants to abandon Islam and attack the Koran in Australia, they are free to do so. If I am to follow my religion truly and properly, I should leave that person alone. I am free to criticise their choice but I am not to threaten them or in any other way to break the law.

Hirsi Ali came to Sydney a few months back. Not a single Muslim made any threats. Yes, Muslim people criticised her. That is their right. But she travelled around Sydney quite freely.

In fact, I even interviewed her for an Australian e-zine called NewMatilda.com. The product of that interview was this article …

http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com/2007/08/unreliable-narrator.html

You write:

Islam and Muslims. There is in a very strict sense something called Islam which is defined by the Koran and the Hadiths. The literal meaning of Islam is “submission to the will of Allah” or just “submission” and at its core, Islam proclaims that it is the perfect religion and therefore unalterable and is the final word of god. Any change or dilution of the core beliefs is by definition not Islam.

Once you accept that this is what Islam is, and any deviation is not Islam, you’ve already accepted the Wahhabi interpretation as the only legitimate one. So does Ms Hirsi Ali. Indeed, that’s exactly what the Wahhabis & Salafis would want. And thanks to petro-dollars, they’ve done a rather good job convincing a lot of people about their sole legitimacy.

Like the Catholic church which arrogated to itself the exclusive right to interpret the Christian religion (wiping out alternatives over time). And then Martin Luther came along. But even before he came along, there were Copts, Greek Orthodox, Syrian Christians in Kerala etc. We can wait for a Muslim Martin Luther. In the meantime we can promote the Greek Orthodox faith; especially when we are Greeks.

Here is a must-see site:

The Truth About Islam
http://islamwatchers.blogspot.com

That has less to do with intellectual issues and more to do with pure cowardice.

Saying something about islam means you’re liable for elimination!

I am fiercely atheistic …and what is worse, I am an idol-worshipping Hindu.

I have no problem understanding this line of thinking from from my point of view. I would like to know how you have come to follow this line of thought.

I understand your anger at Islam, and your rebuttal of Nitin’s Indian version of Islam. But I think he probably meant softer Islam like Sufism. So far as I have read, there is a hardlined, probably the harshest version of Islam called Wahhabi, promoted throughout the world by Saudi Arabia (how it is not detrimental to its monarchy, I don’t understand). In the recent decade or so, it has gained much prominence, by Bin Laden, Taliban, etc. You can see the results in Indonesia and Malaysia, where Muslims were peace-loving with Hindu names such as Sukarno, Megavati Sukarnoputri, Garuda Airlines, became centers of hard core Islam.

People tend to forget that there is a version of Islam called Sufism, a devotional form which is more similar to Bhakti marga of Hinduism. Sufism is a peace-loving sect/version in Islam and its revered Khaja Moinuddin Chisti’s Darga is well-known and revered by both Hindus and Muslims. This needs to be promoted within and outside India, even with state patronism if need be, for the well-being of India and the world.

http://www.dlshq.org/religions/sufism.htm

http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/VIIIa/VIIIa_2_14.htm

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ABewley/diwan.html

http://hendrasyahputra-d.blogspot.com/

I suspect that if you look for it you will find critical essays about every religion. I dont see how it has any relevance to the article quoted.

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But I liked your reasoning and in particular the distinction that you draw between ‘Islamophobia’ and ‘Muslimphobia’. And Yes, there is absolutely no reason why one shouldnt criticise Islam. (just like once can criticise any other religion or ideology) All the more kudos to Taslima Nasreen for having the guts to say it like it is.