Comments on: Who’s India’s Wu? http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/ Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:57:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Inst http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-109340 Inst Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:43:08 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-109340 And how do you know China won't overcome its difficulties? When you have grown a country from a North Korea into an increasingly prosperous 1.5 world nation, things like massive environmental problems are no longer so daunting to overcome. Right now, for India, I'm wondering what would happen if the plutocrats hijack the democracy. If, say, the emerging Indian middle-class and the Indian capitalists banded together, would they be able to destroy the power of the bureaucrats and thus begin faster economic growth? I'm sure the Russians would be pissed; the class of people that destroyed their country would be the class of people that would save another. And how do you know China won’t overcome its difficulties? When you have grown a country from a North Korea into an increasingly prosperous 1.5 world nation, things like massive environmental problems are no longer so daunting to overcome.

Right now, for India, I’m wondering what would happen if the plutocrats hijack the democracy. If, say, the emerging Indian middle-class and the Indian capitalists banded together, would they be able to destroy the power of the bureaucrats and thus begin faster economic growth? I’m sure the Russians would be pissed; the class of people that destroyed their country would be the class of people that would save another.

]]> By: Buddhu http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103847 Buddhu Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:25:33 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103847 As some Zen saying goes: don't strive for truth, just cease to cherish opinions...it hurts to see a seeker like you being disrespectful toward Gandhi. The price that China is paying to grow would come to haunt it, the way Nehru betrayal of Gandhi is continuing to haunt India. As some Zen saying goes: don’t strive for truth, just cease to cherish opinions…it hurts to see a seeker like you being disrespectful toward Gandhi. The price that China is paying to grow would come to haunt it, the way Nehru betrayal of Gandhi is continuing to haunt India.

]]> By: Guru Gulab Khatri http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103597 Guru Gulab Khatri Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:00:49 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103597 China has created illegal migrant worker of its citizen by issuing cards who can work where nonesense. So Hoo Hoo I am glad that india does not have a Wu. Fu to any one suggesting emulating a chinese model. India will work better with more liberty for the individual. It needs more Economic liberty (easy access to markets for capital,goods and services). Its difficult to set up a business in india and I blame the government and the existing businesses(TATA,birla Ambanis dont want any competion). Apart from that there needs to be more political liberty. Randira changed indian constitution and no political party can be created in india if it doesnt call itself socialist. And of course Social Liberty, No Indian should be browbeaten by Taus et all. China has created illegal migrant worker of its citizen by issuing cards who can work where nonesense.
So Hoo Hoo I am glad that india does not have a Wu. Fu to any one suggesting emulating a chinese model.
India will work better with more liberty for the individual. It needs more Economic liberty (easy access to markets for capital,goods and services). Its difficult to set up a business in india and I blame the government and the existing businesses(TATA,birla Ambanis dont want any competion).
Apart from that there needs to be more political liberty. Randira changed indian constitution and no political party can be created in india if it doesnt call itself socialist.
And of course Social Liberty, No Indian should be browbeaten by Taus et all.

]]> By: Loknath http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103377 Loknath Sat, 16 Jun 2007 12:03:45 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103377 Well said chandra. capitalism has the ability to clean up the accumulated mess and to that extent its good for the any society, rich or poor to begin with. we did lot of talking and singing on what should have been the means to prosperity and that how erstwhile tribal, flesh eating neighbours are prospering, how the west made all the wealth etc but in the process somewhere we all left one major impediment to this whole urbanization, industrialization, production and prosperity thing completely untouched viz. the cultural ecosystem, by culture i don't mean festivals, food habits, religious beliefs and attire. It means the collective set of motivations, needs, desires of the people of each geography within the nation that determines how much of labour and capital each individual is WILLING to put forth to attain something good for him. Education is one of the sureshot ways to enable a person use his rational and judgement to decide whats good for him and whats not, what he needs and what he doesn't, but thats not all. It doesn't simply bring about a step change to his way of living. This is more true because hazaar centuries of external oppression and spineless rulers and butchers even before Nehru had made the people of this country skeptical of every intention of rulers and they simply don't tend to trust administartion, governance and any ideology for their good future. Thar might be one of the reason why people choose to live in villages and not to venture into nearby nearby towns, only exception being landless farmer and the rich farmers. both migrate to city to find a small job or educate their kids in convent schools of the city. So they end up electing "local" leaders who irrespective of character promises them some free stuff, different statehood and different identity etc. In fact as a nation we never had a one single identity. Pakistan has one, djibouti may be even has one, somalia has one, poland has one, japan has one, chinks have one but we don't and we never will have one. That makes us a laughing stock to the rest of the nations where people prospered based on single set of motivations and ideologies, gods and even similarity in what they eat, wear, think and talk, i.e predicatability but we are a dangerous mixture, immiscible, random, diverse, adhoc, fragments and figments of people making a nation called india - spineless, identityless and unpredictable. At this point of time i am a 100% cynical as i feel it doens't take much brains to conclude that we have reached a state of recurring cyclical mess that will only continue to cripple us further, unless we reduce the nation into independent states with similarities in motivations and ideologies , or for that matter just let every state become an idependent nation by a decree of parliament. Let them set their own goals and work towards that. That the only predictable way to prosperity of the individuals. Loknath Well said chandra. capitalism has the ability to clean up the accumulated mess and to that extent its good for the any society, rich or poor to begin with. we did lot of talking and singing on what should have been the means to prosperity and that how erstwhile tribal, flesh eating neighbours are prospering, how the west made all the wealth etc but in the process somewhere we all left one major impediment to this whole urbanization, industrialization, production and prosperity thing completely untouched viz. the cultural ecosystem, by culture i don’t mean festivals, food habits, religious beliefs and attire. It means the collective set of motivations, needs, desires of the people of each geography within the nation that determines how much of labour and capital each individual is WILLING to put forth to attain something good for him. Education is one of the sureshot ways to enable a person use his rational and judgement to decide whats good for him and whats not, what he needs and what he doesn’t, but thats not all. It doesn’t simply bring about a step change to his way of living. This is more true because hazaar centuries of external oppression and spineless rulers and butchers even before Nehru had made the people of this country skeptical of every intention of rulers and they simply don’t tend to trust administartion, governance and any ideology for their good future. Thar might be one of the reason why people choose to live in villages and not to venture into nearby nearby towns, only exception being landless farmer and the rich farmers. both migrate to city to find a small job or educate their kids in convent schools of the city. So they end up electing “local” leaders who irrespective of character promises them some free stuff, different statehood and different identity etc. In fact as a nation we never had a one single identity. Pakistan has one, djibouti may be even has one, somalia has one, poland has one, japan has one, chinks have one but we don’t and we never will have one. That makes us a laughing stock to the rest of the nations where people prospered based on single set of motivations and ideologies, gods and even similarity in what they eat, wear, think and talk, i.e predicatability but we are a dangerous mixture, immiscible, random, diverse, adhoc, fragments and figments of people making a nation called india – spineless, identityless and unpredictable.

At this point of time i am a 100% cynical as i feel it doens’t take much brains to conclude that we have reached a state of recurring cyclical mess that will only continue to cripple us further, unless we reduce the nation into independent states with similarities in motivations and ideologies , or for that matter just let every state become an idependent nation by a decree of parliament. Let them set their own goals and work towards that. That the only predictable way to prosperity of the individuals.

Loknath

]]> By: Chandra http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103355 Chandra Sat, 16 Jun 2007 07:20:18 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103355 chaitanya,if Nehru did what was right, he (and his still unreal supporters) should also be open for bashing when things go wrong because there is nothing inevitable about taking a right decision. Capitalism may have created environmental damages - but it has the capacity to clean it up. Socialistic industrial policy destroys the environment too with no capacity to clean it up. Capitalist civilizations aren't threatened by global warming, poor socialists ones are (many because they can't cope with it). Atanu, top down policies, whether urbanization or industrialization will never work in India - too many competitive influences (and ensuing corruption). India is having it's Meiji restoration - ie learning from outside world. Our utterly intellectually dishonest PM may not send people to learn from the world (when he has free time slicing and dicing people for quotes and making dumb speeches), but people and companies are learning from outside world and rapidly incorporating in practice the best practices. Surely government could help, but not intervening is help too (especially in a socialist country). Who knows we may figure our a way to live productively in the country side (although I doubt that very much). As far as Wu is concerned, he made his money sitting in Hong Kong working in Asean countries, away from communist party influence - it would have destroyed him long time ago. Ramachandra Guha comes to mind when critiquing Nehru (there are others, of course) and DLF Group comes to mind on a purely infrastructure basis (it surely is a global third tier company, but one has to start somewhere). chaitanya,if Nehru did what was right, he (and his still unreal supporters) should also be open for bashing when things go wrong because there is nothing inevitable about taking a right decision. Capitalism may have created environmental damages – but it has the capacity to clean it up. Socialistic industrial policy destroys the environment too with no capacity to clean it up. Capitalist civilizations aren’t threatened by global warming, poor socialists ones are (many because they can’t cope with it).

Atanu, top down policies, whether urbanization or industrialization will never work in India – too many competitive influences (and ensuing corruption). India is having it’s Meiji restoration – ie learning from outside world. Our utterly intellectually dishonest PM may not send people to learn from the world (when he has free time slicing and dicing people for quotes and making dumb speeches), but people and companies are learning from outside world and rapidly incorporating in practice the best practices. Surely government could help, but not intervening is help too (especially in a socialist country). Who knows we may figure our a way to live productively in the country side (although I doubt that very much).

As far as Wu is concerned, he made his money sitting in Hong Kong working in Asean countries, away from communist party influence – it would have destroyed him long time ago. Ramachandra Guha comes to mind when critiquing Nehru (there are others, of course) and DLF Group comes to mind on a purely infrastructure basis (it surely is a global third tier company, but one has to start somewhere).

]]> By: Amit Kulkarni http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103349 Amit Kulkarni Sat, 16 Jun 2007 06:33:37 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103349 Is there a precedence in history where nations can survive upon exhaustion of their natural resources? Is there a precedence in history where nations can survive upon exhaustion of their natural resources?

]]> By: chaitanya http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103336 chaitanya Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:58:20 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103336 Atanu, you are becoming so predictable in your posts. Enough of Nehruvian bashing, and hindsight 20/20. Those men implemented what they thought was the best system, given the conditions at that time. By the way, you speak so much of Nehruvian penalty, why don't you talk about massive civilization threatening capitalist penalty we are paying now in terms of environmental destruction ? What are your suggestions on how India can avoid those problems, still implement your ideal urban lifestyles ? Rs 1 Lakh car ? Atanu, you are becoming so predictable in your posts. Enough of Nehruvian bashing, and hindsight 20/20. Those men implemented what they thought was the best system, given the conditions at that time. By the way, you speak so much of Nehruvian penalty, why don’t you talk about massive civilization threatening capitalist penalty we are paying now in terms of environmental destruction ? What are your suggestions on how India can avoid those problems, still implement your ideal urban lifestyles ? Rs 1 Lakh car ?

]]> By: Banerjee http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103296 Banerjee Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:34:23 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103296 ButSir, Thank you for your clarification. My understanding is that you feel that the road to hell is filled with good intentions - as far as India is concerned. Atanu's point is that good intentions need not always lead to hell and a bit of freedom goes a long way in making sure that mistakes are corrected as soon as they occur. <blockquote> There is also a clear insinuation in all of his posts which is that if you agree with him it is Smart, otherwise you are agreeing with status-quo which is Stupid. </blockquote> I don't agree with your assessment. The comments section on this blog is open. However, I'm yet to see a convincing critique of Atanu's ideas and I'm sure there are many flaws in his thinking. Personally, I do not have the needed understanding of the issues involved to say much of value. But if you do, please elaborate. What I have seen so far on your part is mostly cynicism and emotional outbursts but not much food for constructive thought. ButSir,

Thank you for your clarification. My understanding is that you feel that the road to hell is filled with good intentions – as far as India is concerned. Atanu’s point is that good intentions need not always lead to hell and a bit of freedom goes a long way in making sure that mistakes are corrected as soon as they occur.

There is also a clear insinuation in all of his posts which is that if you agree with him it is Smart, otherwise you are agreeing with status-quo which is Stupid.

I don’t agree with your assessment. The comments section on this blog is open. However, I’m yet to see a convincing critique of Atanu’s ideas and I’m sure there are many flaws in his thinking. Personally, I do not have the needed understanding of the issues involved to say much of value. But if you do, please elaborate. What I have seen so far on your part is mostly cynicism and emotional outbursts but not much food for constructive thought.

]]> By: But Sir http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103287 But Sir Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:50 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103287 Banerjee, My point would be very obvious if you have been following Atanu's blog. Every other post is about moving Indian villagers into cities. Earlier he was into RISC, now he is into DeCi. In both cases idea is the same ie. get villagers to urbanise. While this is a very noble intention, it has been tried in the past several times and ended up making slum-dwellers out of the villagers. Village is not just a backward place, it provides land, tradition, permanent agrarian jobs, ties to land & people etc. - things you cannot quantify with economic models. Similarly city is not just apartments, jobs in infy, malls, multiplex, 8% growth. City also means slums, beggars, disease, slave labor, uncertain future. There is also a clear insinuation in all of his posts which is that if you agree with him it is Smart, otherwise you are agreeing with status-quo which is Stupid. But there is no proof since he has not actually done anything concrete besides putting out econ literature. What seems Smart on paper becomes Stupid when you try and execute, that is India's tragedy.In that sense, I completely agree with you when you say "if you want anything to happen you have to do it yourself. That’s the way things work – and not just in India." One final point is that it is not correct to ask questions like Who is India's Wu ? Shall I ask Who is China's Godse ? Who is Japan's Lincoln ? Every country has its own history, growth models & heroes. While inspiration from others is certainly good, one has to find solutions that are intrinsic to one's own nation/culture/peoples, not imitate what some Wu did for his people. Banerjee,
My point would be very obvious if you have been following Atanu’s blog. Every other post is about moving Indian villagers into cities. Earlier he was into RISC, now he is into DeCi. In both cases idea is the same ie. get villagers to urbanise. While this is a very noble intention, it has been tried in the past several times and ended up making slum-dwellers out of the villagers. Village is not just a backward place, it provides land, tradition, permanent agrarian jobs, ties to land & people etc. – things you cannot quantify with economic models. Similarly city is not just apartments, jobs in infy, malls, multiplex, 8% growth. City also means slums, beggars, disease, slave labor, uncertain future.

There is also a clear insinuation in all of his posts which is that if you agree with him it is Smart, otherwise you are agreeing with status-quo which is Stupid. But there is no proof since he has not actually done anything concrete besides putting out econ literature. What seems Smart on paper becomes Stupid when you try and execute, that is India’s tragedy.In that sense, I completely agree with you when you say “if you want anything to happen you have to do it yourself. That’s the way things work – and not just in India.”

One final point is that it is not correct to ask questions like Who is India’s Wu ? Shall I ask Who is China’s Godse ? Who is Japan’s Lincoln ? Every country has its own history, growth models & heroes. While inspiration from others is certainly good, one has to find solutions that are intrinsic to one’s own nation/culture/peoples, not imitate what some Wu did for his people.

]]> By: Banerjee http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103261 Banerjee Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:33:29 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103261 @ButSir: You wrote <blockquote> If you present false binaries like Urban Smart Rural Stupid, based upon one single data point viz China, you should expect your readers to be both Rural and Stupid to vote you in. But then they are actually Urban and Smart :) so what will you do ? </blockquote> What exactly is your point ButSir? I have noticed that many comments on Indian blogs have this vagueness. Is that a cultural thing? Can you not spend a couple more minutes writing down what you actually mean to say? In language that others can understand? Atanu provides great example of clear writing in his posts. At least try to emulate him if you have the brains to understand <blockquote> "One can either be original and smart, or one can be smart enough to copy what others have figured out." </blockquote> @Atanu: You must have figured out by now that if you want anything to happen you have to do it yourself. That's the way things work - and not just in India. @ButSir: You wrote

If you present false binaries like Urban Smart Rural Stupid, based upon one single data point viz China, you should expect your readers to be both Rural and Stupid to vote you in. But then they are actually Urban and Smart :) so what will you do ?

What exactly is your point ButSir? I have noticed that many comments on Indian blogs have this vagueness. Is that a cultural thing? Can you not spend a couple more minutes writing down what you actually mean to say? In language that others can understand? Atanu provides great example of clear writing in his posts. At least try to emulate him if you have the brains to understand

“One can either be original and smart, or one can be smart enough to copy what others have figured out.”

@Atanu:
You must have figured out by now that if you want anything to happen you have to do it yourself. That’s the way things work – and not just in India.

]]> By: civil engineering » Blog Archive » Who s India s Wu? http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103248 civil engineering » Blog Archive » Who s India s Wu? Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:03:52 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103248 [...] ( 366 links from 187 sites) by atanu …more Plowshare (Part I) Atomic-nuclear: Peaceful uses;Engineering;Infrastructure: Co [...] [...]

( 366 links from 187 sites) by atanu …more Plowshare (Part I) Atomic-nuclear: Peaceful uses;Engineering;Infrastructure: Co [...]

]]> By: But Sir http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103247 But Sir Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:50:50 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103247 If you present false binaries like Urban Smart Rural Stupid, based upon one single data point viz China, you should expect your readers to be both Rural and Stupid to vote you in. But then they are actually Urban and Smart :) so what will you do ? If you present false binaries like Urban Smart Rural Stupid, based upon one single data point viz China, you should expect your readers to be both Rural and Stupid to vote you in. But then they are actually Urban and Smart :) so what will you do ?

]]> By: Hobbes http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/comment-page-1/#comment-103243 Hobbes Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:51:42 +0000 http://www.deeshaa.org/2007/06/15/whos-indias-wu/#comment-103243 Hi Atanu, In general, I respect your views and ideas a lot. I also like the straight talking you do. In last couple of posts, you have ridiculed Indian politicians a lot. Whereas I believe they deserved to be ridiculed, isn't it a problem with our society as a whole that we elect these absolutely incompetent people in a democratic government? And if our community elects them, don't we deserve the incompetent government who merrily indulges in dividing our society on the lines of caste and religion? China and Japan's success also lies in the fact that the society as a whole took to reformations and better life. Looking back at India, there seems to be extreme friction at every little reformation step, just look at the Indian Airlines strike. So, if there is something wrong, it's with all of us including you and me. And we should do something positive about it by getting our hands dirty, to start with, why don't we start voting in every small elections including corporations and municipalities? Just complaining about it is surely not an answer. Cheers, Hobbes. Hi Atanu,
In general, I respect your views and ideas a lot. I also like the straight talking you do. In last couple of posts, you have ridiculed Indian politicians a lot. Whereas I believe they deserved to be ridiculed, isn’t it a problem with our society as a whole that we elect these absolutely incompetent people in a democratic government? And if our community elects them, don’t we deserve the incompetent government who merrily indulges in dividing our society on the lines of caste and religion?
China and Japan’s success also lies in the fact that the society as a whole took to reformations and better life.
Looking back at India, there seems to be extreme friction at every little reformation step, just look at the Indian Airlines strike.
So, if there is something wrong, it’s with all of us including you and me. And we should do something positive about it by getting our hands dirty, to start with, why don’t we start voting in every small elections including corporations and municipalities? Just complaining about it is surely not an answer.
Cheers,
Hobbes.

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