India’s success in reducing poverty is real A few days ago, Atanu Dey found himself squaring off with Pankaj Mishra and Suketu Mishra, in a very mixed-up r [...]

well not exactly!
that is the beauty of the ’sensitivity’ arguement.
You see by implying only they are capable of having the balance of heart and mind required they can say well you are being
insensitive….

I guess the best way to deal with the likes of Mishra, Amardeep Singh is to turn the rhetoric of these deracinated Indians on their adopted societies.

If Mishra claimes, 7/11 had to do with class warfare, ask him if he thinks 9/11 had to do with class warfare. If they claim its Hindu-on-Muslim violence that motivated these attacks, ask them if they think 9/11 attacks were motivated by Christian-on-Muslum violence. Either ways, they will be left scrounging for cover.

Sounds very similar to Mr. Kasuri’s statement that unless kashmir issue is solved bomb blasts will continue.(This was later retracted).

The reason why I’m saying this that the were given by another pseudo/communist blog/website (http://www.theotherindia.org/environment/the-nitwit-state-of-nitwit-orissa.html).

What this artcile mentions is that Mr. Mishra has written a book on same lines. Therefore I’m not surprised that he would be harping on the same theory. Must be his editor who asked him to do it.

Problem is, we are a democracy. We have to handle all veiw points, however anti/national they might be.

If you look at the leftists today, they control most of the government today. They are making all these noises because after a long time it looks like development is finally reaching the grassroots. This might lead to erosion of their vote banks which are based on caste politics.

I’m from Orissa. and I’m currently very proud of the kind of investment happening there now. the total investment is close to 400,000 crores . But even in all these matters it is left which creates problems.

Guess we intellectuals have a long fight in our hands.

So how do you dismiss the claim of “fiddling with numbers” when you yourself claim it to be imperfect?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1794302.cms

An Osama Bin Laden look alike was used by Laloo and Ram Vilas Paswan for election caompaign. Even before the blood had dried on Mumbai tracks, Mulayam gave a clean cheat to SIMI. Most recently Indian Government banned several supposedly anti-Islamic sites. The recent reservation fiasco was just the kind of opportunity the Islamists and Communists were looking for. Now we have an OBC spin to the terror angle. I predict that from now on the blasts will target only upscale areas or places that symbolize the wealthy. We managed to add about 500 millions to the about 100 million who cheer after every blasts.

We have a serious problem on our hands.

Now I’ll have to rant a little. Sorry.

I agree that Pankaj Mishra did not say that that “have nots” committed the Mumbai bombings

Chris’s prelude and the first five questions he asked Mishra were all variations of framing the blasts as a struggle between have and have-nots. Chris also specifically tied that to Mishra’s NYT article which was “almost forecasting” the blasts. Not once did Mishra deny that connection and countered (or even doubted) Chris’s framing. Here is a direct quote from that section of the discussion:

Chris: “The reality that you described was nation’s 70% are still on the farm and something just under 400 million Indians
living on a dollar a day – almost sub-saharan poverty”

Pankaj: “Absolutely and these are I’d say some of the most essential facts about India and you don’t actually see them mentioned. So that’s why when something like Mumbai blasts happen, people suddenly say “how did that happen”. You’d have to relate those facts to what’s actually going on in india right now and to see that there is actually a lot of rage and
discontentment among a large section of
population which feel left behind by the economic reforms . You see that kind of frustration splilling over in places like China where number of riots are going up every year.

If Mishra is not connecting the failure of economic reforms to the bomb blasts here, I do not understand English (which is always possible given that CPI(M) forced us to not learn that foren language in our bangla-medium state government public school until we were 11).

Ignoring the global context of Islamic terrorism, denying Pakistan’s role in its manifestation in India and comparing terrorism in India to riots in China by tying them to economic inequalities are disingenuous.

Also after Suketu’s refutation of Chris’s framing when Mishra changes his tone a little , he says “this is really not at all a way to negotiate for equality or social and economic justice”. So he disagrees with the “way”, but still does not question the fact that “they” are indeed negotiating for equality and social justice. It is tough to swallow that rationalization.

Also why is this disdain for bloggers and why the adoption of right-wing talk radio’s (Rush/Laura Ingraham/Sean) “elite” meme? Whoever wants to see India grow and is benefiting from that growth is an ‘elite’ now?

The very section where he blasts the “mysticism” in everyone’s intellect except his own, he ends up using a strawman. Another direct quote:

“It’s a kind of fantasy that’s being fed by the media and these bloggers who belong to the same kind of elite who are peddling this fiction that ‘tide is rising and all the boats are rising’ and 1.3 billion peole will one day enjoy the same standards of living and high consumption that all the pople elsewhere are
enjoying in the west and in Europe and in
America”

He is referring to Atanu’s statement that the Indian growth was affecting and will affect all sections albeit inequally. Where did Atanu peddle the fiction that all the boats would be raised to the levels of (current) western consumption and living standards? He was talking about the potential of economic reforms to raise all Indian boats to a level higher than where they were prior to the reforms.

And finally when asked about his vision for India, he just repeats a recent interview of the current prime minister ! I thought everything was going wrong in India.

Thanks a bunch!

http://www.crazyfinger.org/2006/07/win_a_free_copy.html

Regards,
Crazyfinger

Christopher Lydon and Pankaj Mishra just wanted to continue to beat the drum of “400 million under $1 a day”. They refused to see that even those in the lower class are gradually seeing the effects of growth. “Sharing the economic growth pie equally” is an argument that is often put forth but never going to be a reality. If the econimic growth is a reality only when those 400 million start earning, say, $10 a day, then, yeah, everything is a fantasy. But if those earning, say, 10c day have started earning, say, 50c a day, isn’t that a great leap forward? [a. I don't know that exact numbers, but I just made up the 10c/50c as an example b. $1 a day, while it may sound really bad, it still is about Rs 16K per year. It is low, but not something by which you can not get by in rural areas, I think. Or is it?]

About farmer suicides: Atanu was only trying to explain the reasons for the suicides. While he could have been more empathetic, the discussion was on why this is happening. Pankaj Mishra, while saying that Atanu’s reasons were “false”, he never provided a reason himself. He went on say it is shameful. Yes it is shameful, but we have to face the facts of why this has been happening, and the reason given by Atanu seems to make sense.

PS: I agree, though, that Pankaj Mishra did not say that that “have nots” committed the Mumbai bombings.

I’d understand this if he was running for elected office. He isn’t.

Well Nitin why shouldnt some one who is running for elected office be able to
call a spade a spade?

Should some one who is running for elected office not call for better utilization of
indias labour?
Farm sector is unproductive.
Why shouldnt some one who is running for office say, “Farmers we have a tough road ahead, and too many off you are working on too little land and growing too little food”, instead of “we are a tradition of small villages” and empathaticCRAP.

Why shouldnt some one who is running for electoral office be able to say that “india HAS BEEN UNDER ATTACK FROM ISLAMIC TERRORISM”.

I’d understand this if he was running for elected office. He isn’t.

Instead of telling Lydon that he is full of sh#$ about the have v/s have-not stuff, Mishra went on with his version of have v/s have-nots and thus tacitly agreeing with Lydon’s ridiculous (and bigoted) assertion about the bombings. Until Suketu Mehta came in and said that the bombing is a separate issue from the poverty issue. Suketu Mehta’s comments were much more balanced and made a lot more sense than Mishra’s.

The height of intellectual dis-honesty from Mr.Mishra is that he would even mention the word islamic extremists while explaining the Mumbai bombings. So, by extention, according the Mr. Mishra the Varanasi bombings of a temple (during a religious festival), Bombing of mall in Delhi during last Diwali, attack on a sacred Hindu shrine in Ayodhya were all due to disgruntled poor people.

That intellectual dishonesty is what troubled me. Nobody denies that there are challanges in India with respect to gap between rich and poor, and there is some ways to go before it can be remedied, but discounting the external threat to the nation from terrorism altogather sounds sinister.

Lastly, majority left-right opinion in the US feels the Israel had the right to defend itself against the terrorist attacks by Hezbullah. There is a disagreement about the degree on which Israel’s action is justified, but not the right. But in case of India they wouldnt even acknowledge that there is a terroristic threat from Pakistan towards India?? Let alone agreeing that India has the right to defend herself ???

May be its just a problem of poor brown people living in sub-saharan conditions, how could they be subjected to terrorism ..

Atanu was very reasonable in admitting that there are many problems. Your thrust that things have “improved” is in my opinion the moot point. A growing economy will not mean that everyone will be able to party in the discotheques of Colaba. The doomsdayers need to get this to their collective brains.

Kush,
Nobody on SM will call out Pankaj Mishra or C.Lydon on his absolute bogus claims.

HAHAA
Nooooo they would say its for sulekhaaa.
Enjoy my south asian brother

Amardeep wrote

Your point may be valid, but I wish you would make it in a more sensitive way.

Why? may I ask one has to resort to sensitivity.

Lyndon was insensitive throught out looking for links between class struggle
and sensitively ignoring the muslim issue.

Also were you sensitive when you posted a link about RDX NOT BEING USED?

Going back to the general bombing issue,
Recall that the 1st group to help the 1st class travelling victims were shanty town dwellers the underclass.
where was the class struggle then?

Now to your other point

…when you responded to the statistic about 100,000 farmer suicides by saying, effectively, ‘yeah, these things will happen as India transitions from an agricultural to an industrial economy.’ That comment reflected a rather distressing lack of empathy for the plight faced by the rural poor.

What would empathy do here Mr Singh?
Give them more incentive to be unproductive
which would keep more people tied in farm sector….
Lets here your or better yet Mishra’s solution or may be i should for suketu mehta to write a screen play “mission farmer”…

I could not beleive that mishra would be such a big fool to suggest that maoist rebels are running pseudo goverment with taxes and ‘dispensing justice’…
The taxes are stealing from the poor.
No other way of looking at.
And an eg of justice was done in bihar when
the naxals broke a prison and freed 300 prisoners.

Naxals and maoists are not new phenominon…
Such things are casualy ignored by ’sensitive’

Also, it’s interesting that neither Rediff nor the Hindu carried the story you’re linking to. According to Rediff it might be SIMI. And they still haven’t figured out what to do with the mystery body they’re holding.

I’m not saying that I think anyone other than Jihadists carried out these attacks. And I personally strongly suspect an LeT role.

But I do think it’s fair to say that the exact individuals involved aren’t known yet, and that the investigation is still pending without a major breakthrough. They’ve arrested various people here and there, but no conclusive announcement has been made.

And anyone who is not ideological does not say that nothing about this attacks is known.
ToI reported that National security adviser MK Narayanan one page note showing Pak Fidayeen confessions, when the PM was on his way to G-8. Its here
But nothing will ever constitute enough knowledge about the attacks to the ideologues.

I think the issue is lack of “backruptcy protection” type legal framework. A bankruptcy, the way its formed legally in the US, can give a person a fresh start. Coupled with good micro-lending institution the farmer issue can be tackled. Mukesh Ambani’s latest annoucement about corporate agriculture with distribution network is going to address this issue. Again the solution is one offered by the “market” (probably to the chagrin of closet communists)

But the most abomibale thing I heared was Pankaj Mishra saying that Mumbai blasts were have-nots attacking the haves. Completely discounting Islamic extremism and forgetting that India has the most amounts of “Islamic extremist attacks” anywhere in the world (this includes Israel even). Sepia Mutiny had a post on that written by Vinod.

Pankaj Mishra’s statement along with Lydon’s attitude makes a comment written by somone on Sepia Mutiny ring true. The commenter had said: ” A lot of Americans, dont considere it terrorism, when non-whites are killed. They just think its brown-on-brown violence. Oh how uncivilized are they?”

Less said about terror equivocating Sepia Mutiny’s savaging Indians actually living India, the better.

Atanu, you haven’t written on how you reacted to Mishra on the show.

PRI (Public Radio International) is a notoriously “progressive”, “liberal” radio production. They will do anything to show how economic progress (i.e. third world countries trying to get rich) is bad. They also practice the left-winf ideal of moral equivalence, so for them terrorists are just people with a different point-of0view trying to express themselves. I listen to their local affiliate here in Cleveland, and I am not surprised by the show at all.

Thanks for trying to stand up for the right way. Good luck.

Deepak

Direct quote from Mishra: “Acts of terror really have to be faced down and they have to be dealt with and this is really not at all a way to negotiate for equality or social and economic justice. But I do think the connection between this bombing — as Suketu said, so much is unclear — it’s not right to speculate about who is behind this and how did it happen. But just going back to the bombing in 2003, it was largely the work of local Muslims who were angry about what happened in Gujarat the previous year.”

He never said what you say he said.

I agree that the show didn’t give you as much air time as it did Mehta and Mishra. Is your complaint with how you were treated on the show or with Mishra specifically?

In your post you say, “the word ‘pogrom’ is used,” and then fail to mention that it was Suketu Mehta who used the word in the interview, not Mishra.

People should listen to the show (corrected link) and decide for themselves whether what Mishra is saying is “gibberish.”

Finally, I was also a little shocked when you responded to the statistic about 100,000 farmer suicides by saying, effectively, ‘yeah, these things will happen as India transitions from an agricultural to an industrial economy.’ That comment reflected a rather distressing lack of empathy for the plight faced by the rural poor.

Your point may be valid, but I wish you would make it in a more sensitive way.

Looks like Lashkar-e-Toiba and ISI and Al-Queda nexus doesnt mean anything.

Kush,
Nobody on SM will call out Pankaj Mishra or C.Lydon on his absolute bogus claims.

Someone please tell him that poverty exists in almost all countries – we do not see terrorists striking everywhere. The man really needs to travel more – and even if has, it has been wasted on him. Really, how much more delusional can you get? To make conclusions like him on a public forum is not just bad judgement, its sacrilegious.

Glad to know that I am not the only one who suffers from incoherent rage
Sadly however in my case rage doesn’t translate into anything.

Regards

In the past I had assumed that nearly everything that an individual comes to believe at any stage in his/her life, comes about from one’s own experience.

But over the course of years, it seems to me that while some people gather their beliefs shaped mainly by their own experiences, there are a vast number of others who adhere to strong beliefs that are not necessarily derived from their own experience, but instead from their knowledge (of political systems etc., for example), from external sources of opinions that they may have assimilated from their historical reading, and from watching other people’s experiences at a distance. It seems to me that folks like Mishra belong to the latter category.

The world does have a place for these two different mindsets, but the difference is this: in areas like economic development (and hence economic disparity) in India, what we need foremost is people who can actually do stuff productively in the real-world, i.e., business people, especially entrepreneurs (social, business etc.), sportspersons, economists, i.e., precisely those people whose performance and skill-set is driven, measured and shaped largely by their own past experiences. Knowledge can be learned, can be taught, can be broadcast, but gaining useful experience requires hardwork, isn’t it?

People with only knowledge, with only opinions and whose opinions are shaped not by what they did but what they read and assimilated are really poor judges of where everything is going and what’s right or wrong with it. India has long suffered and continues to suffer from the overweight of precisely this group of people, i.e., people with opinions, knowledge, and political ideas that polarize one from the other. Well, I’ll say it, Mishra’s article is full of this intellectual obesity. I am sure he brought his full weight to the panel discussion.

We know that we often chide ourselves for being either too emotional or too intellectual in a conversation or a debate when a sense of proportion is warranted. For too long we have lived with this ineffective categorization (emotional vs. intellectual). But for our economic condition, for our goals, and for our challenges, we should now introduce another comparison vector into our blog discussions and debates, that is knowledge vs. experience. This is so that actual doers – the engines of market economy – are given primacy when pitted against knowledge and opinion hoarders. Then, perhaps we’d have a less polarized, more real conversation and more real debates, you know, where open minds prevail.

Regards,
Crazyfinger

Expediency is his hallmark – goes back to canard about Indian army and Sikh massacre in 2000.

Right now, I am really bored of him