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	<title>Comments on: Idol-worshipping gone haywire</title>
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	<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/</link>
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		<title>By: Atanu Dey on India&#8217;s Development  &#187; On Unwashed Masses and Idol-worshipping</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-4653</link>
		<dc:creator>Atanu Dey on India&#8217;s Development  &#187; On Unwashed Masses and Idol-worshipping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-4653</guid>
		<description>[...] ow dare you!&#8221; Some take idol-worshipping to an extreme. So I followed up with a post on idol-worshipping gone haywire.  	I have a tentative theory why Indians appear [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ow dare you!&#8221; Some take idol-worshipping to an extreme. So I followed up with a post on idol-worshipping gone haywire.  	I have a tentative theory why Indians appear [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ashish Hanwadikar</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-3434</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashish Hanwadikar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 07:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-3434</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://ashish.typepad.com/ashishs_niti/2005/07/the_real_lincol.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The real Lincoln&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://ashish.typepad.com/ashishs_niti/2005/07/the_real_lincol.html" rel="nofollow">The real Lincoln</a></p>
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		<title>By: Atanu Dey on India&#8217;s Development  &#187; Ending Two Years</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-3428</link>
		<dc:creator>Atanu Dey on India&#8217;s Development  &#187; Ending Two Years</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-3428</guid>
		<description>[...] mas &#8220;Flat-head&#8221; Friedman. Finger-pointing at idols is not taken very kindly by idol-worshippers. 	I do not write about pretty things. And some of the u [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] mas &#8220;Flat-head&#8221; Friedman. Finger-pointing at idols is not taken very kindly by idol-worshippers. 	I do not write about pretty things. And some of the u [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Prashant Mullick</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-287</link>
		<dc:creator>Prashant Mullick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-287</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t but agree with what you&#039;ve just written on this post. 

People are fallible and policies should be questioned at all times. I&#039;d sure like to read more about what these national blunders were that you attribute to Nehruvian and Gandhian policies.

Someone once told me that the ancient Indians figured out government/economics and all that very well. Now when I ask them the question that how is it that we find ourselves in such a mess if that were true. The answer I get blames all of it squarely on the long years of foreign rule on India... I find that a little too hard to believe that a society could reach such an apex in its glory and then succumb to external forces without any problems inherent in itself.

I keep coming back to thinking of what you&#039;ve just so eloquently put forth. Idol worship and glorification of people and not enough criticism of their fallacies and mistakes have led us on this path of degeneracy. 

The only prudent thing would be to make an about-turn and not go down that path anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t but agree with what you&#8217;ve just written on this post. </p>
<p>People are fallible and policies should be questioned at all times. I&#8217;d sure like to read more about what these national blunders were that you attribute to Nehruvian and Gandhian policies.</p>
<p>Someone once told me that the ancient Indians figured out government/economics and all that very well. Now when I ask them the question that how is it that we find ourselves in such a mess if that were true. The answer I get blames all of it squarely on the long years of foreign rule on India&#8230; I find that a little too hard to believe that a society could reach such an apex in its glory and then succumb to external forces without any problems inherent in itself.</p>
<p>I keep coming back to thinking of what you&#8217;ve just so eloquently put forth. Idol worship and glorification of people and not enough criticism of their fallacies and mistakes have led us on this path of degeneracy. </p>
<p>The only prudent thing would be to make an about-turn and not go down that path anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: Arun Anantharaman</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-288</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun Anantharaman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-288</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think you read your comments carefully. From what I can read, neither Praveen nor Niket seem to claim Gandhi is infallible. I have objected to certain arguments you have put forth, because I think they are wrong. 

Yes, personally, I do believe that we spend too much time analysing one particular question that you say is your concern , i.e. &quot;If our policies were bad, who was responsible?&quot;. And by far, much of what I have read so far (and not just in your blog) seems to indicate that  we affix responsibility more out of hindsight than any true appreciation of the context in which such decisions were made and the times in which these people lived.

You said &quot;India has to look very critically at the burden we bear of the legacy of Gandhi. We must choose to free ourselves from a blind uncritical acceptance of a defunct ideology.&quot; 

Lol. There is no legacy of Gandhi. If he was around, he would have laughed at that statement. Defunct ideology? Except maybe for Anna Hazare&#039;s modest experiment at Ralegaon, it has never existed in the first place. I would rather wish more people were &quot;at least aware of his ideology&quot;.  

Finally, am I heaping abuse on the messenger? Is anyone here pretending that there are no hard problems and no hard work needs to be done? To say we are comfortably numb to the real state of affairs is to give yourself too much credit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you read your comments carefully. From what I can read, neither Praveen nor Niket seem to claim Gandhi is infallible. I have objected to certain arguments you have put forth, because I think they are wrong. </p>
<p>Yes, personally, I do believe that we spend too much time analysing one particular question that you say is your concern , i.e. &#8220;If our policies were bad, who was responsible?&#8221;. And by far, much of what I have read so far (and not just in your blog) seems to indicate that  we affix responsibility more out of hindsight than any true appreciation of the context in which such decisions were made and the times in which these people lived.</p>
<p>You said &#8220;India has to look very critically at the burden we bear of the legacy of Gandhi. We must choose to free ourselves from a blind uncritical acceptance of a defunct ideology.&#8221; </p>
<p>Lol. There is no legacy of Gandhi. If he was around, he would have laughed at that statement. Defunct ideology? Except maybe for Anna Hazare&#8217;s modest experiment at Ralegaon, it has never existed in the first place. I would rather wish more people were &#8220;at least aware of his ideology&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Finally, am I heaping abuse on the messenger? Is anyone here pretending that there are no hard problems and no hard work needs to be done? To say we are comfortably numb to the real state of affairs is to give yourself too much credit.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirthi Ramakrishnan</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-289</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirthi Ramakrishnan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-289</guid>
		<description>Gandhi is supposed to be this &quot;original&quot; saint with a world view so radical that, not just in India, he is regarded on par with Jesus and Buddha. Martin Luther King followed in Gandhi&#039;s footsteps but he gets no such adulation, at least not to that degree. The reason is that in Gandhi&#039;s case, the British left the scene, and his posterity (Nehru and the Congress) used him as an unreal projection that they could hide behind. In the case of King, the white man never left the scene, and the black movement did not have full centerstage to gloat on King&#039;s personality, and he did not reach cult status. It will be interesting to see what happens to Mandela&#039;s legacy. My sense is that in a world where everything is so under scrutiny and attention spans are short, the kind of propaganda that carried Gandhi&#039;s legacy is not possible today. 

Now, Gandhi&#039;s ideas were not all that original, he basically was influenced by Thoreau and Emerson, and where he excelled was drawing analogies with the Gita and applying this in the Indian context. This is something the Marxists could never do. If you read Thoreau&#039;s thoughts on Civil Disobedience, you get a good idea. 

Of course, all this is nothing new. Everyone knows that Gandhi was influenced by Thoreau. The point I am making is that Gandhi was a great man who excelled in a cetain environment.  It is not just the person, but the combination with circumstances that create a cult. The same Gandhi would have been fodder in Nazi Germany. When there are no huge turning points, heroes cannot be created. Indira and Rajiv and Sonia will be footnotes in history, though they had and will have moments in the sun. Self rule was a big turning point. Gandhi represented the end of an era and Nehru a beginning of another. That is why they are idols. To either praise them effusively or to lambast them for future faults of society is just not useful, leave alone right or wrong. Every culture or country or society needs a few heroes, and we had a couple. As with all worship, there is no sense of proportion. Very exaggerated, no doubt and damaging, absolutely, but we just have to pick up the pieces and move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gandhi is supposed to be this &#8220;original&#8221; saint with a world view so radical that, not just in India, he is regarded on par with Jesus and Buddha. Martin Luther King followed in Gandhi&#8217;s footsteps but he gets no such adulation, at least not to that degree. The reason is that in Gandhi&#8217;s case, the British left the scene, and his posterity (Nehru and the Congress) used him as an unreal projection that they could hide behind. In the case of King, the white man never left the scene, and the black movement did not have full centerstage to gloat on King&#8217;s personality, and he did not reach cult status. It will be interesting to see what happens to Mandela&#8217;s legacy. My sense is that in a world where everything is so under scrutiny and attention spans are short, the kind of propaganda that carried Gandhi&#8217;s legacy is not possible today. </p>
<p>Now, Gandhi&#8217;s ideas were not all that original, he basically was influenced by Thoreau and Emerson, and where he excelled was drawing analogies with the Gita and applying this in the Indian context. This is something the Marxists could never do. If you read Thoreau&#8217;s thoughts on Civil Disobedience, you get a good idea. </p>
<p>Of course, all this is nothing new. Everyone knows that Gandhi was influenced by Thoreau. The point I am making is that Gandhi was a great man who excelled in a cetain environment.  It is not just the person, but the combination with circumstances that create a cult. The same Gandhi would have been fodder in Nazi Germany. When there are no huge turning points, heroes cannot be created. Indira and Rajiv and Sonia will be footnotes in history, though they had and will have moments in the sun. Self rule was a big turning point. Gandhi represented the end of an era and Nehru a beginning of another. That is why they are idols. To either praise them effusively or to lambast them for future faults of society is just not useful, leave alone right or wrong. Every culture or country or society needs a few heroes, and we had a couple. As with all worship, there is no sense of proportion. Very exaggerated, no doubt and damaging, absolutely, but we just have to pick up the pieces and move on.</p>
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		<title>By: Niket</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-290</link>
		<dc:creator>Niket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-290</guid>
		<description>&quot;a tendency to immediately label any criticism of any person as a sign of disrespect&quot;
If my comments made you think so, the problem is in my expression of thoughts. I didn&#039;t consider this disrespect at all. I believe that we NEED to question even those whom we worship. My personal case: I don&#039;t agree at all to Gandhiji&#039;s ideas, but I still worship (well, almost) him.

People like Gandhi and Nehru have left behind a stong legacy. Its up to us to mould their ideals into what suits our country the best. Self reliance, self denial, disobedience were the need of the hour (again, this is debatable) 60 years ago. Continuing on that legacy is not pragmatic, and Gandhiji need not be &quot;blamed&quot; for a lack of vision in the later generations.

BTW, I do object to the remark about Kasturba... what they did (or did not) in their own bedroom is none of our business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;a tendency to immediately label any criticism of any person as a sign of disrespect&#8221;<br />
If my comments made you think so, the problem is in my expression of thoughts. I didn&#8217;t consider this disrespect at all. I believe that we NEED to question even those whom we worship. My personal case: I don&#8217;t agree at all to Gandhiji&#8217;s ideas, but I still worship (well, almost) him.</p>
<p>People like Gandhi and Nehru have left behind a stong legacy. Its up to us to mould their ideals into what suits our country the best. Self reliance, self denial, disobedience were the need of the hour (again, this is debatable) 60 years ago. Continuing on that legacy is not pragmatic, and Gandhiji need not be &#8220;blamed&#8221; for a lack of vision in the later generations.</p>
<p>BTW, I do object to the remark about Kasturba&#8230; what they did (or did not) in their own bedroom is none of our business.</p>
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		<title>By: Niket</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-291</link>
		<dc:creator>Niket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-291</guid>
		<description>A side-effect of criticizing a person instead of an idea is that the discussion veers into unintended direction. We are debating now about people&#039;s falliability and idol worship, whereas I believe that the more important issue is how the idea of independent village (as opposed to a global village) affects where we stand as a nation. I also find the issue of &quot;what if&quot; very intriguing. It should be used to understand what we need to do for the future, not to gloss over lost &quot;opportunities&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A side-effect of criticizing a person instead of an idea is that the discussion veers into unintended direction. We are debating now about people&#8217;s falliability and idol worship, whereas I believe that the more important issue is how the idea of independent village (as opposed to a global village) affects where we stand as a nation. I also find the issue of &#8220;what if&#8221; very intriguing. It should be used to understand what we need to do for the future, not to gloss over lost &#8220;opportunities&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Prakash S</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-292</link>
		<dc:creator>Prakash S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-292</guid>
		<description>This is what I think, I had sent this to Atanu in an email, he thinks it should go here:
---
I think it was a
&gt;phenomenal thing to get so many people to work for the
&gt;same cause...but I think if it was not for Gandhi we
&gt;would have got our independence a lot earlier thanks
&gt;to people like Chandrashekar Azad.
&gt;
&gt;I never had a framework to explain it, till I read
&gt;your post on &quot;first-best&quot; worlds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is what I think, I had sent this to Atanu in an email, he thinks it should go here:<br />
&#8212;<br />
I think it was a<br />
>phenomenal thing to get so many people to work for the<br />
>same cause&#8230;but I think if it was not for Gandhi we<br />
>would have got our independence a lot earlier thanks<br />
>to people like Chandrashekar Azad.<br />
><br />
>I never had a framework to explain it, till I read<br />
>your post on &#8220;first-best&#8221; worlds.</p>
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		<title>By: Niket</title>
		<link>http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/07/06/idol-worshipping-gone-haywire/comment-page-1/#comment-293</link>
		<dc:creator>Niket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://home.blogstreet.com/2004/07/06/157#comment-293</guid>
		<description>Prakash,
Your argument also borders on &quot;what if,&quot; and one can simply not know an answer to that. Before Gandhiji burst into the scene, we had freedom struggles going on for a while - one can argue since 1857. With indigineous support for the British and the disinclination of Maharajas to support the freedom struggle, I am not sure if a violent movement would have succeeded the way we assume it would have.

I believe anti-violence (Non-violence does not appropriately describe the spirit of ahimsa) was the right way for India to gain independence.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prakash,<br />
Your argument also borders on &#8220;what if,&#8221; and one can simply not know an answer to that. Before Gandhiji burst into the scene, we had freedom struggles going on for a while &#8211; one can argue since 1857. With indigineous support for the British and the disinclination of Maharajas to support the freedom struggle, I am not sure if a violent movement would have succeeded the way we assume it would have.</p>
<p>I believe anti-violence (Non-violence does not appropriately describe the spirit of ahimsa) was the right way for India to gain independence.</p>
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